All hits are obvious hits. Good rule or no?

[shamu]

Lane - when you take the other teams 40 on the break, you should expect to get shot at. A lot


As far as the rule goes, I like to keep it simple:

- yes, any time a player is hit and continues to play with a hit (anywhere), there should be something to redress the game balance. PSP - a pack hit is a minor penalty while a hit anywhere else is a major (1for1 and 2for1, if you prefer), which is similar to the Mill rule
- No, I don't feel it's too strict. Players are too good at pretending they didn't get hit to rely on player reaction as the basis for judgement. The rule allows for clear, consistent enforcement.
- Yes, a more competent reffing crew (in any league) would solve a lot of problems but I would keep the pack rule anyway. It's not about punishment as much as balance.
- most new refs don't pull as many penalties as they should. A few will go penalty crazy, but for the most part they don't. Add in judgement calls and things can get pretty fuzzy. if trained refs have this problem with a very clear rule, how much worse is going to be with untrained/newbie refs? (that's kind of rhetorical to anyone who's been playing for more than a few years)

Pebble - I have to agree with you in one respect - there are too many players getting penalized. Maybe if they cleaned up their game and learned some skill they wouldn't have to play on after getting hit Hey, the game might even be fun again. To put it another way, if you're going to push the limits, don't complain about the consequences.

Bunkerkidz - well said.

 

[Wadidiz]

One thing I AM taking issue with in the rules - is the refs not being able to call a player neutral.

As it stands, when you cannot call a player neutral - which by default means you are no longer allowed to touch him, because you may inadvertently expose him to the opposition so that he gets hit.

What this means is that - for instance - a player sliding into a snake (where you most often get hit on the side facing the snake), can just tuck up against the snake, and the hits he has will not be seen by the ref.

I firmly believe there ARE situations, where a ref should have the ability of calling a player neutral - if nothing else to make the game fair!

The MS rules still allow neutral calls. I took them out of the NES rules because neutral calls are now dodos. I have never heard of nor seen a neutral call in any X Ball. The only way a neutral call can work in today's fast games on relatively small fields (compared to the past) is to totally freeze the field. I don't see that happening.

I do agree, however, that refs should not significantly touch players nor interfere in any way. I have seen and heard of many instances of refs pushing or pulling players into hits--and that dog don't hunt. In my ref training I always instruct refs not to man-handle players.

It is one of the dilemmas of paintball but neutral calls simply aren't worth the cost and therefore players are going to sometimes get by with wearing some hit that's virtually impossible to detect by a good ref. Refs just have to do the best they can without neutral calls.

 

[Bunkerkidz]

I don't think there is a great need for neutral calls, if the player chooses to hide the hit, sooner or later a ref is bound to see it, and then that player will get penalized.

And what you said about the snake can be solved most of the time with good referee placement and good refs.

 

[shamu]

True, neutral calls don't work with the evolution of the game. they were fine in the woods, but with the speed of today's game and size of the field, it's nearly impossible to call a player neutral and keep opponents from advancing without stopping the entire game.

As far as touching players - sometimes the only way to find a hit is to move a piece of clothing or push into a bunker. As Wad says, there's no reason to manhandle a player, but at the same time players are neither sacrosanct nor untouchable. The ref has a job to do and if the player is uncooperative, well, sometimes you have to get your hands dirty

the only problem with waiting for a player to un-hide his hit is that by the time he does it may no longer look anything like a hit. He hasn't wiped it, just muddied it up enough to get the benefit of the doubt from some judges. IMO, better to go in and find the hit immediately.

 

[Bolter]

The only hit I am ever genuinly suprised at is the direct hit to the front of the hopper. If I am honest, you can feel/hear everything else.

Why do players tuck in to the bunker when their pack gets clipped? Because they felt it.

Its a good rule as long as the marshals are sensible.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

I certainly knew which hits to acknowledge, and which which I could credibly deny knowledge of receiving.

Yeah - the kids today don't know what good actors us old school players were

Nick

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

I'm glad someone said that. I've been wanting to say that for years.

Ehm - why did you wait????

Nick

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

The MS rules still allow neutral calls. I took them out of the NES rules because neutral calls are now dodos. I have never heard of nor seen a neutral call in any X Ball. The only way a neutral call can work in today's fast games on relatively small fields (compared to the past) is to totally freeze the field. I don't see that happening.

I do agree, however, that refs should not significantly touch players nor interfere in any way. I have seen and heard of many instances of refs pushing or pulling players into hits--and that dog don't hunt. In my ref training I always instruct refs not to man-handle players.

It is one of the dilemmas of paintball but neutral calls simply aren't worth the cost and therefore players are going to sometimes get by with wearing some hit that's virtually impossible to detect by a good ref. Refs just have to do the best they can without neutral calls.

Steve - if you say that as a head ref (and what is "touch significantly" anyway???) - you are just ASKING for trouble.

Once you remove the refs possibility of making a neutral call, while not being allowed to touch the player... you are effectively telling me - the player - that as long as I tug the hit up against the bunker, I can happily go on cheating for as long as I like, and there is not a damn thing you can do about it.

Paris last year, I played a whole game against the Tontons, with a goggle hit I received on the breakout - I just leaned my head against the dorito, posted a lane, and stayed there... now in that instance, it was just the ref being an ass, not reacting to the crowd screaming for 7 minutes to get me out.... and not noticing I was playing "funny"..... but under your rules, even if he suspected I was hit, there would be nothing he could do about it!

Nick

 

[Red_Merkin]

I may catch hell for this. But, I am totally against the idea that the teams are customers. The teams are competitors. They paid an entry fee to compete in an event. They didn't buy a used car.

next you're going to say that running paintball tournaments isn't a business


you pay for the privilidge of competing, like any activity based service industry. The product you provide includes 'fair competition'.

 

[Red_Merkin]

Paris last year, I played a whole game against the Tontons, with a goggle hit I received on the breakout - I just leaned my head against the dorito, posted a lane, and stayed there... now in that instance, it was just the ref being an ass, not reacting to the crowd screaming for 7 minutes to get me out.... and not noticing I was playing "funny"..... but under your rules, even if he suspected I was hit, there would be nothing he could do about it!

did you win or lose?