A must read - PA rule change for the 2005 season

[Baca Loco]

Just to be meddlesome--even stipulating Simon's data as correct and accurate (which I'm sure it is)--does that necessarily invalidate Gadget's idea of regulating ROF at the hopper? It doesn't seem to since in practice it would be "policed" the same way as some cap on markers--by the actual bps rates achieved in game play situations.

As to variations in achievable rates of fire among players and products that would result--How is that any different than the situation that has always existed? Both legally and illegally. (Until the advent of the NXL Standard.)

Should something like Gadget's idea be widely implemented wouldn't the longer result be the same diversity of products we currently enjoy with development aimed at maximizing efficiency and capability to multiple products instead of purely faster and faster?

On the downside Gadget's "answer" is gonna face the same obstacles of opinion in that it too restricts max ROF.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Just to be meddlesome--even stipulating Simon's data as correct and accurate (which I'm sure it is)--does that necessarily invalidate Gadget's idea of regulating ROF at the hopper? It doesn't seem to since in practice it would be "policed" the same way as some cap on markers--by the actual bps rates achieved in game play situations.

Nope, his idea is valid and would work if you are only looking to restrict ROF.

But that's not why this rule is looking to be implemented is it?

This rule is being considered to make things 'fair' again.

Even if people could only shoot 13bps with a gravity loader and you kept the 'semi' only rule. It still wouldn't stop people with bouncy guns or cheater software to get to that 13bps, would it?

Even if the cap is 'only' 13bps by your loader, it's still an advantage to be able to get that while running or crawling the snake via a cheater board isn't it?

Capping the guns via the loader, would ONLY reduce the rof. Not the cheaters advantages.

 

[FAMINE]

Originally posted by matski
Taking winning, and what is takes to win, seriously is an entirely different issue.....

If all that matters is the win, and you are prepared to do whatever it takes to achieve this (be it ramping boards or whatever) then no, I dont take it serious. I play fair and by the rules. Doesnt matter if the opposing team dont, It makes the win far sweeter when u play fair and they dont

So whats next to even the playing field and beat the cheaters?
I know wiping is a big cheat thing, and is almost impossible to monitir (how many people have u seen wipe, yet how many times have u seen them being caught?)
So is that gonna be next?

I see what you are all saying, But people have concerns about the current proposed changes, about what they may lead to.
Personally I have no soloutions, In all honesty I hadnt really considered the few cheating rampers enough of a threat. I play a team that puts a load of paint down i just assume they can fire quick and adjust my game accordingly. The same with teams that wipe, If i see em do it, they get extra love

There will always be cheaters, we aint gonna stop people wanting to improve thier game without the hard work. But we fix the gun issue and there is still a load more to fix. Yet by changing the gun rules, we are surely opening up the rule book for countless changes to bring the honest player in line with the cheaters.


A little bit on the whole "tourny optional rule" Once made legal, how many major UK tourny organisers will be able to keep from using it if it is now the "legal option"?

As for sites being affected, I didnt mean we gotta upgrade site kit etc. But what about walk on days, mixed days, insurance cover etc etc etc.

I still dont understand how we went from hating all FA and moded markers, to loving them.


Oooh, and Manike, U mention that the cap would be on sustained fire, not short bursts. Could you gimme an insight in to how i program a marker into telling if im gonna fire for 0.5 seconds or 20 seconds?
Surely if ROF is capped at marker to 15bps, theres no way I can fire my stack at 20bps??

 

[mad dog]

OK simple lets test all the comments out and the devices, lets hold an open day with all who want to come and bring video, phones whatever recordable devices you have and make a day of it.

Teams or just players of all levels hitting it off against machines and players and lets see all the pros and cons.

This is not only wise but probably the safest way to see if its feasible.

I personally will be taking insurance out for the numpty that comes doing a mugging thinking he is invinsible, while doing a run through and gets lit up by 4 accurate markers doing a maximum of 15balls a second.

Very severe bruising on the way.

New players may suffer from more pro players doing this to them then we go back to original woodland games where by some act of god you develope a invisible shield and carry on when your chest turns a funny mix of colours from dripping red and blue.

Please lets try this before we go ahead with anything,

Yes paint suppliers will go for it because we are firing more
Yes field operators like it because it generates more business
Yes smaller teams will struggle with sponsorship because they are using more.
Yes Bruising injuries may go up and the possibility of something severe no matter how small the risk.
Yes we may have to take out and change our insurances for concusion.

I can fire fast but can't sustain it but 15 sounds alright apart from the fact that as pee gee said there will be a time where the pro plus comes into action along with pepsi max and bang your off the field.

Well just a thought.

Lets work it out, somebody let me in on what happens and the truth not rumours!


As then my strategies will change to sit back wait for the stream of balls to stop....Come out firing stream back and run keep streaming a necklace of balls, without much effort i must add and then shoot 4 players out on a mugging run if lucky.



Try and keep up with that refs

Dont you just love machine guns everyone, wahoo the skill of fast firing using triggers is dead, thier will be no more blacksmiths left soon. lol

 

[Matski]

Originally posted by FAMINE
If all that matters is the win, and you are prepared to do whatever it takes to achieve this (be it ramping boards or whatever) then no, I dont take it serious. I play fair and by the rules. Doesnt matter if the opposing team dont, It makes the win far sweeter when u play fair and they dont

The point, I tried to get you to see, was that some teams may spend alot of time and money training as hard as they can, within constraints, to win events- making sacrifices. By being 'serious about winning', im not talking about cheating but the whole team attitude towards the game in terms of training methods, fitness, focus etc etc....THEN... they turn up at the event, having put in all this effort, and get totally dominated by a bunch of guys with ramping boards and lose unfairly-wasted time and money. The new rule would avoid this kind of senario and make sure that teams who truely train to win, can do just that and not be cheated out of it...You miss-understood entirely...

Originally posted by FAMINE
I play fair and by the rules. Doesnt matter if the opposing team dont, It makes the win far sweeter when u play fair and they dont

I was also suggesting that your being narrow minded about this because you do not have the drive to win that other teams do; Like you state above, you are happy to just turn up and play, not caring if the other team are cheating their asses off as long as you play fair....well the point is that others DO care mate....this rule helps to reduce the unearnt advantage that code cheats are getting. Without it, serious teams are simply going to be encouraged to get cheat codes too so they dont get robbed, and the problem accumulates...as the nxl found.

 

[Hatts]

Originally posted by mad dog
Yes paint suppliers will go for it because we are firing more
Yes field operators like it because it generates more business
Yes smaller teams will struggle with sponsorship because they are using more.
Yes Bruising injuries may go up and the possibility of something severe no matter how small the risk.
Yes we may have to take out and change our insurances for concusion.

MD,

you know I have to disagree with these points... and I've made this comment elsewhere

Why will anyone fire more exactly? There seems to have suddenly sprung up this bizarre notion that this proposed ruling means that every gun on the field will be ripping at 15bps constantly? Why?

In every game I watched last Sunday, and in every game I've ever watched players are moving, ducking behind bunkers, trying to snap shoot people out... they don't stand there ripping out continuous strings of paint for the whole game... so why should would they start now?

Why will bruising injuries go up? If the majority of players are already firing at 12 to 13 bps or 17 or 18 as some claim and getting 1 or 2 hits on an opponent, how are we going to see more by capping at 15? And as I've said many times, we actively encourage the wearing of proper protection if players are concerned.... but they can't be that bothered because none of them ever do.

But why the "scaremongering" that this will start inducing cases of concussion?

So called "smaller" teams or less experienced ones shoot more paint because their very lack of experience on a field is what determines whether they sit and chuck paint or whether they get off their arses and look for the moves that will win it. It's got bugger all to do with the ROF of their gun. Of all people I would have thought you would realise that much.

Sitting in your bedroom trying to get your gun to break the sound barrier is great for kids to impress their mates. My personal opinion is it has little place on a tournament field. If shooting a gun fast is a players ONLY skill, then I'm sorry but he's not not a very good paintballer and I sure as hell wouldn't want him on any team of mine.

 

[Wadidiz]

Russell and I had almost the same experience at the World Cup: We judged bunches of Division X Ball games and then we had the chance to watch a few NXL games with the new gun rules. Both sets of games were exciting, aggressive and often filled with great moves.

But the markers in the NXL games definitely seemed slower than the Division X Ball games. In Div X there were the guns that looked like standard semi-autos and then the many that went from 0 to 60 in like 2 seconds. In Div X we could only catch a fraction of the cheating guns while having to tolerate all the bitchin' and moanin' of the players and constantly hear them call for the Ultimate.

The NXL games didn't have all the griping and seemed fair, even and under control gun-wise. Yet the games were aggressive, exciting and were won by the teams that played better. The real game of PB came out, there seemed to be actually less overshooting and the refs didn't seem to have any problem. The monitoring of the markers seemed almost invisible yet obviously effective.

NXL has improved because of the new rules and that with FA. So I don't think the sky will fall on us when we go with the new rules that don't even have the FA part (although I'm agreeing more and more with Manike that it would be better with FA for technical and safety reasons).

 

[Steve Hancock]

I think that the nxl, 3pulls=15bps F.A. would be to much (aside from being very unlikely to be allowed most places outside the states)

I think if a universally accepted rule on legal markers can be agreed upon that would be an amazing step forward. Yes the new rule has its problems, but it is currently the only option unless people are happy to be cheated against.

The way i see it any sport is a way of competting against other sportsman, by comparing your self within a framework of skills and abilities. Currently one of the skill components of the game (fireing fast) is not contributing positively towards fair competition, and there is no way of encorporating that skill differentiation in to the game fairly. So remove that aspect of the game and focus on the others.

Its a shame to lose it, but really it was already gone, as people were not infact competeing on who could fire the fastest, but using technology to fire fast this for them. If this is the case there is no point pretending that its the players' skill, when its not. Yes some players do have the skill, but their rof is being equally match by people that just use technology, meaning that the skill is not being compared in the competition anyway.

 

[Steve Hancock]

I think the problem with the current situation would continue to grow unless something is done. And those that say the problem is not yet big enough to warrent action. I would say:

1. How do you know? If you can detect these boards or objectively prove bounce in a cost efficent and practical manner? If yes, then all you have to do is let the world know how and there will be no need for the new rule.

2. Should we wait until it is a big problem before acting, or should we lock the stable door before the horse has bolted.

3. It may be needed in some places before others, and if it is introduced as and when it is needed (Eg. International one year, then national leagues, finally local leagues) then there will be a disparity creating the problem raised earlier that teams will have problems crossing over between events. Currently it looks like we have a great opportunity to get some universal rules for markers.

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by Steve Hancock
...Its a shame to lose it, but really it was already gone...

That really sums it up.

PS. I'm not pushing for FA in Europe because it doesn't seem realistic that it could be accepted. Just saying that it solves some problems, like the gun stopping delivery of balls after the trigger is released.