A letter to Bush
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duffistuta
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Warmonger or Peacenik?
Thanks to Dave Jive-Ass...
A WARMONGER EXPLAINS WAR TO A PEACENIK
By Bill Davidson
PeaceNik: Why did you say we are we invading Iraq?
WarMonger: We are invading Iraq because it is in violation of Security
Council resolution 1441. A country cannot be allowed to violate Security
Council resolutions.
PN: But I thought many of our allies, including Israel, were in violation of
more security council resolutions than Iraq.
WM: It's not just about UN resolutions. The main point is that Iraq could
have weapons of mass destruction, and the first sign of a smoking gun could
well be a mushroom cloud over New York.
PN: Mushroom cloud? But I thought the weapons inspectors said Iraq had no
nuclear weapons.
WM: Yes, but biological and chemical weapons are the issue.
PN: But I thought Iraq did not have any long range missiles for attacking us
or our allies with such weapons.
WM: The risk is not Iraq directly attacking us, but rather terrorist
networks that Iraq could sell the weapons to.
PN: But couldn't virtually any country sell chemical or biological
materials? We sold quite a bit to Iraq in the Eighties ourselves, didn't we?
WM: That's ancient history. Look, Saddam Hussein is an evil man that has an
undeniable track record of repressing his own people since the early
Eighties. He gasses his enemies. Everyone agrees that he is a power-hungry
lunatic murderer.
PN: We sold chemical and biological materials to a power-hungry lunatic
murderer?
WM: The issue is not what we sold, but rather what Saddam did. He is the one
that launched a pre-emptive first strike on Kuwait.
PN: A pre-emptive first strike does sound bad. But didn't our ambassador to
Iraq, April Glaspie, know about and green-light the invasion of Kuwait?
WM: Let's deal with the present, shall we? As of today, Iraq could sell its
biological and chemical weapons to Al Qaida. Osama Bin Laden himself
released an audio tape calling on Iraqis to suicide-attack us, proving a
partnership between the two.
PN: Osama Bin Laden? Wasn't the point of invading Afghanistan to kill him?
WM: Actually, it's not 100% certain that it's really Osama Bin Laden on the
tapes. But the lesson from the tape is the same: there could easily be a
partnership between Al Qaida and Saddam Hussein unless we act.
PN: Is this the same audio tape where Osama Bin Laden labels Saddam a
secular infidel?
WM: You're missing the point by just focusing on the tape. Powell presented
a strong case against Iraq.
PN: He did?
WM: Yes, he showed satellite pictures of an Al Qaida poison factory in Iraq.
PN: But didn't that turn out to be a harmless shack in the part of Iraq
controlled by the Kurdish opposition?
WM: And a British intelligence report...
PN: Didn't that turn out to be copied from an out-of-date graduate student
paper?
WM: And reports of mobile weapons labs...
PN: Weren't those just artistic renderings?
WM: And reports of Iraqis scuttling and hiding evidence from inspectors...
PN: Wasn't that evidence contradicted by the chief weapons inspector, Hans
Blix?
WM: Yes, but there is plenty of other hard evidence that cannot be revealed
because it would compromise our security.
PN: So there is no publicly available evidence of weapons of mass
destruction in Iraq?
WM: The inspectors are not detectives, it's not their JOB to find evidence.
You're missing the point.
PN: So what is the point?
WM: The main point is that we are invading Iraq because Resolution 1441
threatened "severe consequences." If we do not act, the Security Council
will become an irrelevant debating society.
PN: So the main point is to uphold the rulings of the Security Council?
WM: Absolutely. ...unless it rules against us.
PN: And what if it does rule against us?
WM: In that case, we must lead a coalition of the willing to invade Iraq.
PN: Coalition of the willing? Who's that?
WM: Britain, Turkey, Bulgaria, Spain, and Italy, for starters.
PN: I thought Turkey refused to help us unless we gave them tens of billions
of dollars.
WM: Nevertheless, they may now be willing.
PN: I thought public opinion in all those countries was against war.
WM: Current public opinion is irrelevant. The majority expresses its will by
electing leaders to make decisions.
PN: So it's the decisions of leaders elected by the majority that is
important?
WM: Yes.
PN: But George Bush wasn't elected by voters. He was selected by the U.S.
Supreme C...
WM: I mean, we must support the decisions of our leaders, however they were
elected, because they are acting in our best interest. This is about being a
patriot. That's the bottom line.
PN: So if we do not support the decisions of the president, we are not
patriotic?
WM: I never said that.
PN: So what are you saying? Why are we invading Iraq?
WM: As I said, because there is a chance that they have weapons of mass
destruction that threaten us and our allies.
PN: But the inspectors have not been able to find any such weapons.
WM: Iraq is obviously hiding them.
PN: You know this? How?
WM: Because we know they had the weapons ten years ago, and they are still
unaccounted for.
PN: The weapons we sold them, you mean?
WM: Precisely.
PN: But I thought those biological and chemical weapons would degrade to an
unusable state over ten years.
WM: But there is a chance that some have not degraded.
PN: So as long as there is even a small chance that such weapons exist, we
must invade?
WM: Exactly.
PN: But North Korea actually has large amounts of usable chemical,
biological, AND nuclear weapons, AND long range missiles that can reach the
west coast AND it has expelled nuclear weapons inspectors, AND threatened to
turn America into a sea of fire.
WM: That's a diplomatic issue.
PN: So why are we invading Iraq instead of using diplomacy?
WM: Aren't you listening? We are invading Iraq because we cannot allow the
inspections to drag on indefinitely. Iraq has been delaying, deceiving, and
denying for over ten years, and inspections cost us tens of millions.
PN: But I thought war would cost us tens of billions.
WM: Yes, but this is not about money. This is about security.
PN: But wouldn't a pre-emptive war against Iraq ignite radical Muslim
sentiments against us, and decrease our security?
WM: Possibly, but we must not allow the terrorists to change the way we
live. Once we do that, the terrorists have already won.
PN: So what is the purpose of the Department of Homeland Security,
color-coded terror alerts, and the Patriot Act? Don't these change the way
we live?
WM: I thought you had questions about Iraq.
PN: I do. Why are we invading Iraq?
WM: For the last time, we are invading Iraq because the world has called on
Saddam Hussein to disarm, and he has failed to do so. He must now face the
consequences.
PN: So, likewise, if the world called on us to do something, such as find a
peaceful solution, we would have an obligation to listen?
WM: By "world", I meant the United Nations.
PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the United Nations?
WM: By "United Nations" I meant the Security Council.
PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the Security Council?
WM: I meant the majority of the Security Council.
PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the majority of the Security
Council?
WM: Well... there could be an unreasonable veto.
PN: In which case?
WM: In which case, we have an obligation to ignore the veto.
PN: And if the majority of the Security Council does not support us at all?
WM: Then we have an obligation to ignore the Security Council.
PN: That makes no sense.
WM: If you love Iraq so much, you should move there. Or maybe France, with
all the other cheese-eating surrender monkeys. It's time to boycott their
wine and cheese, no doubt about that.
PN: Here... have a pretzel, instead.
Thanks to Dave Jive-Ass...
A WARMONGER EXPLAINS WAR TO A PEACENIK
By Bill Davidson
PeaceNik: Why did you say we are we invading Iraq?
WarMonger: We are invading Iraq because it is in violation of Security
Council resolution 1441. A country cannot be allowed to violate Security
Council resolutions.
PN: But I thought many of our allies, including Israel, were in violation of
more security council resolutions than Iraq.
WM: It's not just about UN resolutions. The main point is that Iraq could
have weapons of mass destruction, and the first sign of a smoking gun could
well be a mushroom cloud over New York.
PN: Mushroom cloud? But I thought the weapons inspectors said Iraq had no
nuclear weapons.
WM: Yes, but biological and chemical weapons are the issue.
PN: But I thought Iraq did not have any long range missiles for attacking us
or our allies with such weapons.
WM: The risk is not Iraq directly attacking us, but rather terrorist
networks that Iraq could sell the weapons to.
PN: But couldn't virtually any country sell chemical or biological
materials? We sold quite a bit to Iraq in the Eighties ourselves, didn't we?
WM: That's ancient history. Look, Saddam Hussein is an evil man that has an
undeniable track record of repressing his own people since the early
Eighties. He gasses his enemies. Everyone agrees that he is a power-hungry
lunatic murderer.
PN: We sold chemical and biological materials to a power-hungry lunatic
murderer?
WM: The issue is not what we sold, but rather what Saddam did. He is the one
that launched a pre-emptive first strike on Kuwait.
PN: A pre-emptive first strike does sound bad. But didn't our ambassador to
Iraq, April Glaspie, know about and green-light the invasion of Kuwait?
WM: Let's deal with the present, shall we? As of today, Iraq could sell its
biological and chemical weapons to Al Qaida. Osama Bin Laden himself
released an audio tape calling on Iraqis to suicide-attack us, proving a
partnership between the two.
PN: Osama Bin Laden? Wasn't the point of invading Afghanistan to kill him?
WM: Actually, it's not 100% certain that it's really Osama Bin Laden on the
tapes. But the lesson from the tape is the same: there could easily be a
partnership between Al Qaida and Saddam Hussein unless we act.
PN: Is this the same audio tape where Osama Bin Laden labels Saddam a
secular infidel?
WM: You're missing the point by just focusing on the tape. Powell presented
a strong case against Iraq.
PN: He did?
WM: Yes, he showed satellite pictures of an Al Qaida poison factory in Iraq.
PN: But didn't that turn out to be a harmless shack in the part of Iraq
controlled by the Kurdish opposition?
WM: And a British intelligence report...
PN: Didn't that turn out to be copied from an out-of-date graduate student
paper?
WM: And reports of mobile weapons labs...
PN: Weren't those just artistic renderings?
WM: And reports of Iraqis scuttling and hiding evidence from inspectors...
PN: Wasn't that evidence contradicted by the chief weapons inspector, Hans
Blix?
WM: Yes, but there is plenty of other hard evidence that cannot be revealed
because it would compromise our security.
PN: So there is no publicly available evidence of weapons of mass
destruction in Iraq?
WM: The inspectors are not detectives, it's not their JOB to find evidence.
You're missing the point.
PN: So what is the point?
WM: The main point is that we are invading Iraq because Resolution 1441
threatened "severe consequences." If we do not act, the Security Council
will become an irrelevant debating society.
PN: So the main point is to uphold the rulings of the Security Council?
WM: Absolutely. ...unless it rules against us.
PN: And what if it does rule against us?
WM: In that case, we must lead a coalition of the willing to invade Iraq.
PN: Coalition of the willing? Who's that?
WM: Britain, Turkey, Bulgaria, Spain, and Italy, for starters.
PN: I thought Turkey refused to help us unless we gave them tens of billions
of dollars.
WM: Nevertheless, they may now be willing.
PN: I thought public opinion in all those countries was against war.
WM: Current public opinion is irrelevant. The majority expresses its will by
electing leaders to make decisions.
PN: So it's the decisions of leaders elected by the majority that is
important?
WM: Yes.
PN: But George Bush wasn't elected by voters. He was selected by the U.S.
Supreme C...
WM: I mean, we must support the decisions of our leaders, however they were
elected, because they are acting in our best interest. This is about being a
patriot. That's the bottom line.
PN: So if we do not support the decisions of the president, we are not
patriotic?
WM: I never said that.
PN: So what are you saying? Why are we invading Iraq?
WM: As I said, because there is a chance that they have weapons of mass
destruction that threaten us and our allies.
PN: But the inspectors have not been able to find any such weapons.
WM: Iraq is obviously hiding them.
PN: You know this? How?
WM: Because we know they had the weapons ten years ago, and they are still
unaccounted for.
PN: The weapons we sold them, you mean?
WM: Precisely.
PN: But I thought those biological and chemical weapons would degrade to an
unusable state over ten years.
WM: But there is a chance that some have not degraded.
PN: So as long as there is even a small chance that such weapons exist, we
must invade?
WM: Exactly.
PN: But North Korea actually has large amounts of usable chemical,
biological, AND nuclear weapons, AND long range missiles that can reach the
west coast AND it has expelled nuclear weapons inspectors, AND threatened to
turn America into a sea of fire.
WM: That's a diplomatic issue.
PN: So why are we invading Iraq instead of using diplomacy?
WM: Aren't you listening? We are invading Iraq because we cannot allow the
inspections to drag on indefinitely. Iraq has been delaying, deceiving, and
denying for over ten years, and inspections cost us tens of millions.
PN: But I thought war would cost us tens of billions.
WM: Yes, but this is not about money. This is about security.
PN: But wouldn't a pre-emptive war against Iraq ignite radical Muslim
sentiments against us, and decrease our security?
WM: Possibly, but we must not allow the terrorists to change the way we
live. Once we do that, the terrorists have already won.
PN: So what is the purpose of the Department of Homeland Security,
color-coded terror alerts, and the Patriot Act? Don't these change the way
we live?
WM: I thought you had questions about Iraq.
PN: I do. Why are we invading Iraq?
WM: For the last time, we are invading Iraq because the world has called on
Saddam Hussein to disarm, and he has failed to do so. He must now face the
consequences.
PN: So, likewise, if the world called on us to do something, such as find a
peaceful solution, we would have an obligation to listen?
WM: By "world", I meant the United Nations.
PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the United Nations?
WM: By "United Nations" I meant the Security Council.
PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the Security Council?
WM: I meant the majority of the Security Council.
PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the majority of the Security
Council?
WM: Well... there could be an unreasonable veto.
PN: In which case?
WM: In which case, we have an obligation to ignore the veto.
PN: And if the majority of the Security Council does not support us at all?
WM: Then we have an obligation to ignore the Security Council.
PN: That makes no sense.
WM: If you love Iraq so much, you should move there. Or maybe France, with
all the other cheese-eating surrender monkeys. It's time to boycott their
wine and cheese, no doubt about that.
PN: Here... have a pretzel, instead.
Re: Everyone's an expert on football and war
Also, it was my point that the experts have different opinions. That they disagree over whether to back an indirect, neo-Liddell-Hartian regime-based approach to preventing proliferation, or whether to support a direct, neo-Clausewitzian military counter-proliferation strategy, is to be expected, as the debate between these two schools of thought (the Clausewitz school of thought and the Liddell-Hart school of thought) is an onrunning issue in the study of war, and neither school of thought really seems to get the upper hand.
Though they disagree, Freedman and Spear's opinions are well balanced, well informed, and the result of a lifetime dedicated to studying a complex topic in an unemotional, accademic manner. Which makes it a little bit galling when one hears not particularly well informed emotional reactions based on a rather naive intuitionist ethical framework, that frankly should have been superceeded a long time ago by Rawl's concept of justice.
Anyway, only time will reveal who was right, the pro or anti-war brigade. If the alleged chemical weapons factory with sandblasted camoflauge is actually a chemical weapons factory, and if Iraq civilians keep on being glad to see Western soldiers, as the BBC reporters Ben Brown, David Willis, Richard Gaisford and Carl Dinnen claim they are, and if Iraqis keep on staging insurrections, like the one at Basra, then the pros have it, and the anti-war brigade would have lost - again.
And as for being an expert on TV – at the moment I’d rather get a place at a University in the Californian sunshine, doing a PhD studying the war for South Vietnam, and getting back into surfing and skydiving.
Its not quite as simple as, 'he's an evil bugger, someone tw@t him', as there are plenty of evil buggers in the world whose regimes coilitions do not attack. The issue is 1) He's an evil bugger 2) His persistent efforts to proliferate weapons of mass destruction run counter to our interests. And yes, the situation in North Korea is, and always has been, very different from the situation in Iraq.
Also, it was my point that the experts have different opinions. That they disagree over whether to back an indirect, neo-Liddell-Hartian regime-based approach to preventing proliferation, or whether to support a direct, neo-Clausewitzian military counter-proliferation strategy, is to be expected, as the debate between these two schools of thought (the Clausewitz school of thought and the Liddell-Hart school of thought) is an onrunning issue in the study of war, and neither school of thought really seems to get the upper hand.
Though they disagree, Freedman and Spear's opinions are well balanced, well informed, and the result of a lifetime dedicated to studying a complex topic in an unemotional, accademic manner. Which makes it a little bit galling when one hears not particularly well informed emotional reactions based on a rather naive intuitionist ethical framework, that frankly should have been superceeded a long time ago by Rawl's concept of justice.
Anyway, only time will reveal who was right, the pro or anti-war brigade. If the alleged chemical weapons factory with sandblasted camoflauge is actually a chemical weapons factory, and if Iraq civilians keep on being glad to see Western soldiers, as the BBC reporters Ben Brown, David Willis, Richard Gaisford and Carl Dinnen claim they are, and if Iraqis keep on staging insurrections, like the one at Basra, then the pros have it, and the anti-war brigade would have lost - again.
And as for being an expert on TV – at the moment I’d rather get a place at a University in the Californian sunshine, doing a PhD studying the war for South Vietnam, and getting back into surfing and skydiving.
Oh I see, so when do we go after Korea? They're an "axis of evil" right, and they certainly have weapons of mass destruction.....probably even more dangerous too.
And I'm not Anti-American either...... we've made plenty of blunders ourselves, I just think that lots of young soldiers aint coming home after this one and there could have been an easier way. I'm just a little uneasy arguing over this while my countrymen are being shot up in the desert, so that's me finished, non of us are going to achieve anything by arguing over it...... the war has started and people are dead, so I don't think our opinions matter anymore, it was a debate before casualties, now it's just insulting to those that have died. They are there, they are fighting for us (like it or not). Let's just hope it's over quickly.
And I'm not Anti-American either...... we've made plenty of blunders ourselves, I just think that lots of young soldiers aint coming home after this one and there could have been an easier way. I'm just a little uneasy arguing over this while my countrymen are being shot up in the desert, so that's me finished, non of us are going to achieve anything by arguing over it...... the war has started and people are dead, so I don't think our opinions matter anymore, it was a debate before casualties, now it's just insulting to those that have died. They are there, they are fighting for us (like it or not). Let's just hope it's over quickly.
Going back to tha start point
Even if that were true, it says a lot that the working man booed, while the Hollywood elite cheered. Seeing video clips of the audience at the crashendo of Moore's booed rant, I saw people looking towards the balcony with uncomfortable smiles on their faces, as if a car blasting loud music pulled up behind them in traffic. Even if my interpretation is wrong about the boos, I sure as hell didn't see very many people applaud. Which also belies this next quote.
First he wants to make it clear that it was 5 guys booing, then he says he didn't hear the boos, but instead saw applause. Notice that he said film, not acceptance speach was applauded. They may in fact have applauded an exploitive piece of **** like Bowling.
Typical Hollywood elitist; assuming their opinions, are everyones opinion. I guess Michael has never seen a Gallup poll.
How can that be when Moore's finger sits sqarely on the "pulse of the nation." This is such a load of bull ****!
Absolutely, MTV is one of the biggest conservative voices in the USA! Everyone knows the 3 top giants of conservative media is William F Buckley, Rush Limbaugh, and Kurt Loder.
How can that be cause for concern, when Michael Moore's finger sits sqarely on the pulse of the nation?
How does only 5 stage-hands booing, constitute a furor?
D
duffistuta
Guest
Just found this breaking news on the BBC website.....
News reports have filtered out early this morning that US forces have
swooped on an Iraqi Primary School and detained 6th Grade teacher
Mohammed Al-Hazar.
Sources indicate that, when arrested, Al-Hazar was in possession of a
ruler, a protractor, a set square and a calculator.
US President George W Bush said that this was clear and overwhelming
evidence that Iraq do indeed possess weapons of maths instruction.
News reports have filtered out early this morning that US forces have
swooped on an Iraqi Primary School and detained 6th Grade teacher
Mohammed Al-Hazar.
Sources indicate that, when arrested, Al-Hazar was in possession of a
ruler, a protractor, a set square and a calculator.
US President George W Bush said that this was clear and overwhelming
evidence that Iraq do indeed possess weapons of maths instruction.
Originally posted by duffistuta
Yeh, after all five hands, that's like one guy from Arkensas...
Hahah, and probably spells it that way too.