2006/2007 University Paintball League

[Steve Hancock]

Sweet thanks
Should be going to Bham uni. so its all good now

Whoops missed that one before. That's excelent to hear, look forward to meeting you.

 

[Manic Monk]

Great to here that another offical body is on board, another step towards recognition. Is there any word as to where the league events will be, and will the championship be at the NPF again?

 

[Steve Hancock]

...Is there any word as to where the league events will be, and will the championship be at the NPF again?

The plan is for each round of the league to be held at a different venue around the country, near to one of the participating universities. Potential venues are being spoken to at the moment. However I don't want to make any announcements about venues until arrangements have been finalised.

I have a question: Should we use Ramping next year?

I think it would be a good idea because:

1. The millennium's CPL are playing M7 this year and they are using Ramp, as will Division 1 when they play M7 next year. And the PA are using Ramp, and they may go over to a match format in the near future.

If we were to use ramping it would mean we are playing the same format as the top leagues, which would add to our league's credibility. It would also provide uni players with experience that would be more relevant to playing at a higher level, which would stand them in good stead to progress.

2. The same reasons the other leagues have introduced ramping, it would mean that gun cheating would not be a problem.

Of course I don't expect we'll have an issue with intentional foul play from the Uni's. There is still the problem of players needing to fine tune their triggers in order to get maximum r.o.f. and the resultant unintentional bounce that can occur. Using ramping would remove the need to push the ill-defined sensitivity limits. In turn this would get rid of the problems of defining, testing and enforcing the fine line between having a sensitive trigger and having bounce.

3. I think its fun and makes for better games. Far from pinning players behind their bunkers, it allows them use their gun for cover by running'n'gunning, and move more. In addition, removing peoples concentration from trying to achieve high rates of fire, allows them to think about the game, and come up with more interesting and creative play.

4. We'll have the shot timing kit (PACT timers) through the PA refs.

There are also arguments against using ramping, but i don't think they stand up:

1. Paint consumption may increase. But would it, and if it does would it really be by that much? I'm unconvinced that it would be enough to make costs a problem.

2. It might intimidate newer teams. But they are being exposed to similar rates of fire already and have gotten over that v. quickly. Ramp won't be too much of an increase and i expect they'll get over it quick enough as well. Plus with ramping they'll be able to achieve the same rate of fire themselves, which they'll like. Also, the idea is for the league to raise the standard of play, which means pushing the players, and if they are going to play at a decent level outside of the Uni league they are going to have to get used to ramping at some point.

Of course I'm not sure we should use ramping for the championship unless there is a separate division for the new teams.

3. Some players may not having ramping guns available. However most new guns have ramp now anyway. And the most common student gun, the ion, has ramp as standard. I think there will be hardly any players who will be using a gun that isn't capable of ramping.

4. The old, less skill argument. I would agree that it makes different skills the focus, which is the point. The skill of fast shooting was undermining the credibility of the game due its susceptibility to cheating, and being unable to regulate it the only choice was to remove it.

So, who's in favour, who's against?

 

[dip]

hmmm .... i think if you were to use ramp then you'd need to set strict rules on ROF cap and ramp start point ... don't really want to see some people hit 2bps and then max ramp!!!

and perhaps, if the league is going to be split into 2 divisions then have the open division where ramping can be used for the more experienced teams or those with more guts, and a rookie div for those that don't want to ramp or can't ramp so you're giving them the option.

personally i'm not too bothered as i can hit a constant 15bps without probs un-ramped but yeh ... just my 2 pence =D

 

[Bob]

Is the league going to be limited paint (sorry if i've missed a post saying it is/isn't)?

I think the main trouble will be CAN people ramp, from the aberdeen side we have 3 markers (5 if you include IONs) that can ramp (spitfired angel, ego and predator impy) out of 7 tourney guns. If it was to be a ramping tourney then it would put people (us) at a disadvantage.

Personaly i disagree with counting ION rebound as ramping, 2 balls per trigger pull (one out one in) is alot different from 7.5 to 15bps ramping. I say this because the rebound does not kick in an 7.5 bps.

Or will ramping be counted as anything aslong as its capped at 15 bps.

Maybe having one event (and maybe the final) ramping?

Far from pinning players behind their bunkers, it allows them use their gun for cover by running'n'gunning, and move more. In addition, removing peoples concentration from trying to achieve high rates of fire, allows them to think about the game, and come up with more interesting and creative play.

I don't realy find i think about fire it just kind of happens . In doing this i feel that ramping might make it easier but in running and gunning being able to fire 15 bps wont help you hit anything (certainly wouldn't help my running and gunning with is at best irratic )

I do think that ramping would help to level the playing field, with new players being able to keep up that same rate of fire as the more experienced teams would help keep the game going, rather than having one team swamped by 'enemy' fire.

 

[Steve Hancock]

hmmm .... i think if you were to use ramp then you'd need to set strict rules on ROF cap and ramp start point ... don't really want to see some people hit 2bps and then max ramp!!!

Well obviously we don't want a free-for-all!

But you're quite right we need to decide what limits we set. I reckon it’s a question of whether we use the PSP/PA rules with ramping kicking in @ 5 bps and reactivation within 1 second, or whether we use the Millennium's 7.5 bps kick in.

...and perhaps, if the league is going to be split into 2 divisions then have the open division where ramping can be used for the more experienced teams or those with more guts, and a rookie div for those that don't want to ramp or can't ramp so you're giving them the option...

The league won't be in two divs this season, or at least it is hugely unlikely. Even if it were to happen, or perhaps in future years, I’d still say there is no good reason not to have ramping both Divs.

Whilst a lot of the university teams are relatively new to competitive play, it'll be the more committed ones that sign up to compete in the league for a whole season. I would hope that with that commitment they would want to improve and be prepared to push themselves and not need to be shielded.

The annual championship is where we will look to provide new teams with a beginner’s introduction to tourney ball, and I would agree that ramping might be a bit much to start with for these complete novices. There we might well have a couple of different divisions suited to different level, such as different kit restrictions/limited paint etc.

Is the league going to be limited paint (sorry if i've missed a post saying it is/isn't)?

You're right, I don't think it has been posted anywhere. Anyway, the plan was not to limit the paint, for the reasons mentioned above about wanting to push the teams to develop and get used to playing beyond a novice level.

Personaly i disagree with counting ION rebound as ramping, 2 balls per trigger pull (one out one in) is alot different from 7.5 to 15bps ramping. I say this because the rebound does not kick in an 7.5 bps.

Ramping normally has a kick in point, as mentioned above the millennium ramping rules have a 7.5 kick in just like the ions. So it is ramping. Rebound is just a type of ramping.

I think the main trouble will be CAN people ramp, from the aberdeen side we have 3 markers (5 if you include IONs) that can ramp (spitfired angel, ego and predator impy) out of 7 tourney guns. If it was to be a ramping tourney then it would put people (us) at a disadvantage.

As we are counting ions as ramping, that means you have 5 ramping guns, that's one per player on the field. So no problem? Very few guns don't have ramping on them, and even fewer can't have it added, of all the issues I would have said this was one of the smallest.

Maybe having one event (and maybe the final) ramping?

Each team will be playing different opposition at each round. Depending on whether they have harder or easier opponents at the last round would give some teams an advantage. Also its a bit inconsistant having different rules from one round to the next.

 

[Steve Hancock]

...i can hit a constant 15bps without probs un-ramped...

I'm really sorry, I couldn't resist this one.

A lot more people think they can get a constant 15bps, than actually can. Generally players measure their r.o.f. using their marker's shot counter. When it tells them they have got 15 bps, and they think this figure is an average of what they fired, or that the gun has counted the number of shots they fired in the space of 1 second. What they don't realise is that the figure is actually based in the single shortest time between two of their shots. The figure given is a perfectly valid measure for the max bps, but the problem is that they wrongly interpret this figure as being a rate they were constantly firing at, or one that they have managed to sustain it for more than 1 freak pair of shots.

So yes, plenty of people (you included) may be able to space the occasional 2 shots 1/15 sec apart, but that doesn't really count as the constant rate they claim.

Another common reason that contributes to this misconception is that they don't realise their gun is a bit bouncy and that this is helping them by adding the occasional extra shot. Also, its normally these extra, 'bounced' shots that are spaced the closest together, the familiar double-shot from bounce. And as their marker's shot counter measures the closest single pair of shot, it is based on the occasional extra shot from the bounce.

Of course for all I know you may be one of the dozen or so people in the UK who can actually sustain 15bps unaided. I have know way of knowing that you aren't, its just an educated guess based on the above.

...but I'll put my money where my mouth is.

£10 says you can't fire a string of at least 10 shots with an average bps of 15 on a non-bouncy gun. To be measures on a pact timer, that records the duration between each shot and averaged over ten consecutive shots, and the gun can be checked for bounce by an independent Ref. We’ll have both down at the first round of the league if you want to prove me wrong and take my money. Hell I’ll even give you three attempts.

 

[Bob]

Ramping normally has a kick in point, as mentioned above the millennium ramping rules have a 7.5 kick in just like the ions. So it is ramping. Rebound is just a type of ramping.


As we are counting ions as ramping, that means you have 5 ramping guns, that's one per player on the field.

Please correct me if im wrong but i didin't think that rebound has an activiation speed it just was always on. My point is that would you allow different types of ramping such as millenium and rebound.

If rebound doesn't have an activation speed then it would not only give the people using it an advantage in snap shooting etc but would also make chronoing makers harder (but still possible).

On a different note i think if ramping was to be used the millenium would be the best bet.

 

[Steve Hancock]

Please correct me if im wrong but i didin't think that rebound have an activiation speed it just was always on.

I say this because the rebound does not kick in an 7.5 bps.

I had misread this as rebound doesn't kick in until 7.5 bps. Yes i think there is a mode on the ion that doesn't have a kick in. I thought you were referring to ramping with a 1:2 ratio with a kick in point at 7.5bps. This would be allowed, but rebound (with no kick in) wouldn't.

The ion's ramping is Millennium mode i believe. And like you this is my preference, but the PSP is the bigger league and it suspect it will go their way in the end. But who knows.

 

[Bob]

okay sounds good. I though rebound was its own ramping mode that fired one ball when you pulled the trigger and one when your released rather than the board adding shots once you had reached a certain speed.

Cheers for the answer, i think ramping would be a good idea of an X-ball lite (etc) game as would start of (with a constant 15bps [on my part anyway] ) but would quicky slow down on semi for a long period of time.

EDIT: had a quick read around. Looks like rebound (what ever it is) kicks in at some point. Looks like is was abit off the mark