2006/2007 University Paintball League
- Thread starter Steve Hancock
- Start date
Nah he's justifying saying that by saying that it would have been labelled cheating at some point, and now just because its been added to the rules doesnt make it any different in his eyes. So he's perfectly within his right to that opinion then yeah?
Yeah so maybe some clarification of the point needs to be made. Like I said most of the arguments (including from myself) are from people who havent really experienced 'proper' coached games. Im willing to give it a go and see how it works in practice. But in theory Im entirely with Wrath13. Its easy to say 'oh its in the rules that means its ok', but think about what you're saying. Is it okay to say 'guys go ahead and wipe, if we dont catch you then it doesnt count'? Of course not! It happens, but if we're caught we're penalised. Just because we include it in the rules doesn't automatically make it a good thing to do.
Yeah so maybe some clarification of the point needs to be made. Like I said most of the arguments (including from myself) are from people who havent really experienced 'proper' coached games. Im willing to give it a go and see how it works in practice. But in theory Im entirely with Wrath13. Its easy to say 'oh its in the rules that means its ok', but think about what you're saying. Is it okay to say 'guys go ahead and wipe, if we dont catch you then it doesnt count'? Of course not! It happens, but if we're caught we're penalised. Just because we include it in the rules doesn't automatically make it a good thing to do.
Gees theres been alot of replys....i'm a slow reader people lets tone down the essays 
Its the crowd participation thing that i think makes it important. I't would make a huge differenct to anyone watching the game....especially people who don't know about the finer point of whats going on.
On this point, like ramping im not actually for/against coaching with its impact on the game. Either way means employing a different skill set which is fine by me.AUPaintSoc said:
Its the crowd participation thing that i think makes it important. I't would make a huge differenct to anyone watching the game....especially people who don't know about the finer point of whats going on.
I was taking issue with people saying 'its not okay because it used to be against the rules'. That doesn't mean we were saying 'its in the rules so its ok'. We are saying if its in the rules its not cheating. But not cheating and ok can be different things.
Your point about wiping is not a valid one. At the end of the day the aim of paintball is to eliminate the opposition. You do this by marking them. Allowing people to wipe, directly effects this.... coaching doesn't. Coaching is a progression of the game (not nessecarily a preminent, correct one) like the other examples Steve used, it isn't a blaitant(sp) mokery of it.
I agree, but so far i haven't seen anyone try and use that justification.AUPaintSoc said:
in relation to the above post in order to eliminate an opposing player you have to move yourself to a strategic bunker in order to get a shot on them. coaching will elliminate the success of movement as the coach will alert the opposing player of your movement hence rendering your move useless.
....now to wait for one of you to pick this to pieces
....now to wait for one of you to pick this to pieces
Not being a student I don't want to hijack but as someone with relevant experience of what you guys are debating I will be cheeky and add my view. Our team joined the EPA this year which accepts coaching. Having never experienced it before we were dubious about it's affect on the game as you guys are as well it seems. Now we no longer object as we have not found it makes people into automatons or reduces skills needed.
Bearing in mind coaching from the sideline only really allows you to talk to the tape players unless you are very loud and the team is all focusing on trying to hear the coach instead of playing the coaching seems to have different stages in the game.
1) After the break coaches identify which bunkers the other team have broken to and communicate to the back players in each corner. These players have to then relay the information across the field to other players as usual. This means it's still important to have a good bunker calling system and ability to communicate with your team. (At this stage the only difference to a normal game is the quicker identification of your targets which contibutes to a faster game)
2) The players now play as normal to get eliminations. With so many players on field coaches have less effect until one of the teams is down to a few players. They may help players pick up on opposition moves but also help movement by spotting any gaps in the other teams laning. (If the other team is laning correctly there won't be a gap and the coach has minimal impact)
3) Once one of the teams has an advantage the coaches come in again to help the end game. Generally they are now speaking to forward players to help them judge a time to runthrough. At the same time the other coach is coaching the defense on which side of is bunker to play to prevent a runthrough. (Basically they negate each other for most part and the team with numbers will go on to win as you would expect)
To summarise the coaching allows quicker games as targets are identified earlier allowing eliminations to proceed and helping speed up the end game. The players still need to excercise all the same skills as before though. With people allowed to cheer and shout advice the spectators become far more emotionally involved in the game and will enjoy spectating it far more.
On a practical aspect the PA does have a line 3-4 metres back from the tape spectators cannot cross to ensure voices have to carry further to have impact with one designated "coach" from each team allowed to cross and be right on the tape. If anyone is interested in coming up to the PA Cup on June 11th (maybe a Uni All Star Team) to see what it's all about you will be very welcome. There are also plans for a BBQ at leg 4 so you could just come and spectate and take part for some firsthand coaching experiance.
Bearing in mind coaching from the sideline only really allows you to talk to the tape players unless you are very loud and the team is all focusing on trying to hear the coach instead of playing the coaching seems to have different stages in the game.
1) After the break coaches identify which bunkers the other team have broken to and communicate to the back players in each corner. These players have to then relay the information across the field to other players as usual. This means it's still important to have a good bunker calling system and ability to communicate with your team. (At this stage the only difference to a normal game is the quicker identification of your targets which contibutes to a faster game)
2) The players now play as normal to get eliminations. With so many players on field coaches have less effect until one of the teams is down to a few players. They may help players pick up on opposition moves but also help movement by spotting any gaps in the other teams laning. (If the other team is laning correctly there won't be a gap and the coach has minimal impact)
3) Once one of the teams has an advantage the coaches come in again to help the end game. Generally they are now speaking to forward players to help them judge a time to runthrough. At the same time the other coach is coaching the defense on which side of is bunker to play to prevent a runthrough. (Basically they negate each other for most part and the team with numbers will go on to win as you would expect)
To summarise the coaching allows quicker games as targets are identified earlier allowing eliminations to proceed and helping speed up the end game. The players still need to excercise all the same skills as before though. With people allowed to cheer and shout advice the spectators become far more emotionally involved in the game and will enjoy spectating it far more.
On a practical aspect the PA does have a line 3-4 metres back from the tape spectators cannot cross to ensure voices have to carry further to have impact with one designated "coach" from each team allowed to cross and be right on the tape. If anyone is interested in coming up to the PA Cup on June 11th (maybe a Uni All Star Team) to see what it's all about you will be very welcome. There are also plans for a BBQ at leg 4 so you could just come and spectate and take part for some firsthand coaching experiance.
Management
And once we have decided the strategic stuff, then there wouldn't really be any major things to decide on the day. Things like where to put the BBQ can be decided by the host.
So, once everyone has sorted out their UKPSF affiliation and the forums are up and running, perhaps each club should appoint a representative. (We can have a voting section of the forum, that only the reps can post in.) That way we can have a final vote on the strategic issues like ramping, coaching and format. Then we can elect a chairman for this year who can take over from me as a central point of contact for admin and for the hosts to liaise with.
How's that sound?
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EDIT: Cheers for the insight, and sharing your experiences Ed.
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I don't really see the host universities as having more say than the others, even if they were to form an interim committee. I suppose this is based upon a distinction I have drawn between strategic decisions and day-to-day admin crap. Regarding strategic decisions, I've been and will continue to take everyone's opinions into account equally. And I don't see the committee as taking decisions on the strategy of the league. Strategy should be decided by everyone, perhaps by vote at an annual meeting, or more likely on the forums. The committee and the hosts will only really decided minor details. Not stuff like whether we use ramping and coaching or what format we use.AUPaintSoc said:
Something I'm working on. Obviously people are going to be handing over money and will want to know that it is being looked after, and by who. This is will be sorted out shortly. Although I may come to you all with a number of options to choose from if I think it will be contentious.AUPaintSoc said:
Ultimately the clubs, its their league. So like I said above, strategic decisions should be taken by a vote. But practically speaking it would be good to have a group or individual that can act as a central point of contact for day to day stuff. Perhaps it might be an idea toAUPaintSoc said:
That would be up to the clubs. Once the UKPSF University page is up there will be a list of all the clubs who's there senior committee member and an email address for the club.AUPaintSoc said:
Some of those responsibilities will go to the refs. I suggest we leave matters of play entirely in the hands of the Head Ref. And don't think a system for appealing to a committee for example would be a good idea. If the refs give a penalty, it sticks. No whinging to uncle steve, or who ever else gets stuck with sorting crap out.AUPaintSoc said:
And once we have decided the strategic stuff, then there wouldn't really be any major things to decide on the day. Things like where to put the BBQ can be decided by the host.
So, once everyone has sorted out their UKPSF affiliation and the forums are up and running, perhaps each club should appoint a representative. (We can have a voting section of the forum, that only the reps can post in.) That way we can have a final vote on the strategic issues like ramping, coaching and format. Then we can elect a chairman for this year who can take over from me as a central point of contact for admin and for the hosts to liaise with.
How's that sound?
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EDIT: Cheers for the insight, and sharing your experiences Ed.
.
I'm definatly seeing a trend here between the opinions of people who have played with coaching and those who haven'tIron Lions - Ed said:
Not just coaching, it was the same with every new development. Be it when semi-suto first came in, or when they first moved away from 10 ball tubes and 12g CO2 canisters. Those who hadn't tried it were sure it would be the end of paintball.
And before anyone gets the wrong impression, these things were before my day - I'm not that old!
And before anyone gets the wrong impression, these things were before my day - I'm not that old!