Quantity vs Quality

[Bon]

Well the reasoning for the masters deletion came by today by Robbo... you can read it below.. its also in the tournament sub forum.


This had me thinking, what is right and what is wrong in this situation, obviously, I work for Robbo so my opinion may be bias towards what he says, but in this situation, what does he have to gain? zilch, nadda, nothing. Of all the members on the board he is the only one who puts money in to get nothing out of it. And if anyone questions what he says, im sure other members of the board would be more than happy to back up this post, such is the nature of a committee, everyone knows.


When I read through what said below, It makes me think how shallow of a person is Wendy? It was the quality and quantity of her events that was causing the decline of UK sup-air, and by sticking up north it allowed the NSPL to get a stronger foothold (assumed) and somewhere along the lines, the CPPL has joined into this mix, providing a limited number, but HIGHLY recommended, complimented and value for money events.


So, Wendy is now willing to screw over the NSPL, and also the players for her own gains. How does that seem to you? I highly doubt she would be able to provide the same quality of event for every event she runs now; down in the south also, this was why she agreed to stay up north right?
If you had the option of choosing a small number of high quality events, or a large number of saturated, low quality events, what would you turn up to? I know it would be the high quality ones.


When reading the masters forum I also came across this gem of a post,

I know that Wendy (aka my mum, best in the world) can fight her corner and will come out on top. Nothing Robbo can say will change the way in which she runs the tournaments. as long as you lot are happy and still come along to events, she will do everything within her power to make it bigger and better.

Hold on just a minute, first she concedes her events are ruining the uk tournament scene, and now its being said that aint going to change, a bit of a catch there. Do the people running the masters have such a vaunted self image of themselves that they think they are immune from outside forces?


Personally I think Wendy has shown herself for the person she really is, and whilst I will admit, I was a sceptic of the CPPL, the continued support and constant recommendations of players mean I will be attending the next event I can, just to see what its all about. But I would suggest people do the same, have a look at the options, many complain the cost is too high for what you get now days in paintball. Is it the cost, or the quality?


Would a load of people leaving the Masters for a cheaper, higher quality event force the quality all around to go up?


The paintball industry all around is in trouble, so rather than focusing on brining the amount of ball done up, would the same effect be gained by providing a less amount of higher quality events that draw a bigger, more regular crowd in?


Over to you.

Well, thank-you very muchos for that clarification Pipes, I was feeling kinda lonely out there

I think the only thing that needs explaining is my decision to delete the master's forum which on the face of it seems like some unthinking indulgence on my part, and I can't really blame anybody for believing as much .... that's mainly because they won't be party to events preceding my action.

I'm not sure I can explain it without compromising the privacy of Federation business but after reflecting on this problem for a while, I have come to the conclusion that everything I might need to discuss was within the public domain anyway, leastwise on these boards somewhere.

And so, here it is :-

Last year when the board was created, wendy was invited along because we were well aware we would need promoters when we embarked upon our program for the coming year [2009].
At that first meeting, we agreed that UK ball was at an all time low and needed some desperate help.

Jim Frensham, at that meeting, put the point to wendy, and she conceded afterwards, that the product she was serving up for the UK player was one of the reasons UK ball was declining.
The event product had to change if we were to save UK tournament Paintball.

There were far too many events with far too many teams not turning up for them; the number of events had to be reduced to give those that were held, a better chance of survival ... no real rocket science or surprises so far ...

Our formula to appease this problem was simple, we run 6 events in the midlands /north [Masters] and 6 events in the south [NSPL].

As an integral part of this proposal, it meant wendy had to withdraw from promoting her southern events to allow the NSPL to gain some form traction in the south and thus create a more healthy event series.

As an offset to any money lost from wendy's southern events, it was proposed she be given the Fed Cup [along with Chris] to recoup some of that capital.
On top of that, the Federation's sanctioning of her 6 events would mean they would be better attended because industry board members would all send their teams as well as providing vendor stands, both these helping to increase the money she had coming in.

Basically, wendy gave her word to the board and to Chris Pelling [NSPL] that she would remain out of the south.
There was no time period affixed to this promise merely her word being accepted by us on the board and by Chris Pelling.

So far so good .....

That was until all the board members received an email telling us she is moving back into the south because she needed more money.
Now, call me stupid, call me what you like but I would have presumed that any change to her word might have meant she gave the board [and Chris Pelling] some opportunity to discuss the situation prior to her breaking her word.
No such opportunity was given.

The Federation is never going to tell its promoters how much to earn or how they earn it, this is not our business ...but, if you give your word to us, then it's basic manners to discuss the situation before you declare you are breaking it ... it's also professional.

When I received this email, I immediately deleted her forum from my site, it was a knee-jerk reaction based upon the following reasons and I realised it would cause some players a slight problem, and for that, I make a genuine apology.
I make no apology for anything else mind you.

P8ntballer.com survives because people pay to promote their businesses, they take out banner ads and have company forums, basically my site is a commercial operation.
One of the true ironies to this whole episode is, the email wendy sent to us telling us she was moving back into the south was entitled,'commercial decision' .. I say 'irony' because wendy has never paid a damned cent to promote her business on my website ... not a cent, I allowed it to be on my site for free and for somebody who takes tens of thousands of pounds from you guys, she sure didn't aim any of it this way.
To be fair, I have never asked for any but that's not the point ...... and so, my deletion of her forum was ironically a true 'commercial decision' in that I got rid of something that wasn't earning me a penny but was still promoting her business.
But that's not the whole story here, would that it were .....

Nah, the real reason I got pissed off was this.
The only reason I got involved in all this Fed stuff was to hopefully steer our event series back to some form of health.
That's what I, and others, have been working toward.
I think you have to ask yourself as to people's motives here, do I earn any money from a healthier event circuit?
Who does earn ..... and earn a facking lot of dosh?
Tens of frikkin thousands of dosh .....
It sure as sh!t ain't me !!!!!!!!!!!

That acknowledged, let's look at the reason wendy gave to justify her move back into the south ... 'she needed more money', her words not mine.

Now, if just last year, she had readily acknowledged the reasons UK ball was in such a state, those of too many events in the south and the standard of events at that time, then there is no way she can reconcile her best interests for the UK baller with what she had just done in moving back into the south; not only had she broken her word, she also decided to move back into the south and compete with the Fed's events thus duplicating the very thing she acknowledged was one of the reasons UK ball was in such a state.

She was diluting the number of players who could attend each event thus decreasing the profitability of each event therefore compromising everything because...........she 'needed more money' ...... remember once again here, her words not mine!!!!!

THAT is why I was soo pissed off and deleted her forum, I wasn't going to allow my site to be used to promote her events to earn her more money at the expense of UK Paintball ........... call me irresponsible, call me what you like but my actions ain't motivated by money, hers are, she admits as much - go ask yourself what my motives are ........ and when you realise what they are, you can maybe understand my actions.
I'm Done ....................... in more ways than one !!!!!

 

[spangley_special]

All I'll say is that if Wendy is heading 'ere down south again, it'd better be a better showing than last time.

Southern Masters back in 08 was a ****ing joke

 

[Gadget]

I didn't agree with the original Federation decision to artificially carve up the UK into zones to avoid scheduling clashes - I understand the intentions behind it and know that the best interests of UK ball were at heart, but protectionism never works, the market should be allowed to determine which businesses survive and which fail.

That said, if an agreement had been made, I would expect some discussion prior to changing the terms, rather than making a unilateral decision and declaration.

I don't think it's possible for a central body to try and shape which events teams will participate in to 'save' the sport. I think an acceptance that the enconomy if going to knock paintball in the UK back a long way and a laissez faire approach would be better. Given that other events are also starting up this season (such as Sosta's Forumla 5, which I would certainly choose to play given the choice between that and a 'normal' format event), is there any acceptance that the Fed has failed in its attempt to set boundaries?

 

[sumo89]

, the market should be allowed to determine which businesses survive and which fail.

Because free market policies have worked so well recently?

edit- This isn't an economy we're talking about. Its a struggling industry which will hit rock bottom if nothing changes. We have had a free market for tournaments for years, now look at it. It needs guiding to bring it back.

 

[Bon]

a laissez faire approach would be better.

Because it did so well with this approach before....

 

[Gadget]

It worked fine up until recently - go back to the peak of the game in the early 2000s and everyone would have laughed at the idea of a governing body dictating who can run events. Now that we've hit harsher economic conditions people are panicing. The issue isn't the system, it's poorly run businesses - over expansion, taking too much credit and a belief that the good times will always be around. They'll fold, as will poor promoters, players aren't going to pay money for substandard events (although I'll admit that the continued success of the MS does undermine that point a bit! ), there's no requirement for an over-arching body to try and artificially shore things up, it'll just be at best a pointless layer of bureaucracy with no teeth, at worst some godawful body like the FA in football.

 

[Bon]

But can you not see the quality of the masters events is lower than the alternatives and that it has declined? Why arn't people switching to the CPPL for example, from what ive read, you get a minimum ammount of guaranteed games, its cheaper, the location is easier to get to and apparently nicer than anything the masters has to offer.


Why is this? Loyalty? People don't know better?


If the masters was to expand south again and start running a whole multitude of half-arsed events over several high quality ones, the effect would be detrimental on the other series untill people realised where the value for money was, but which time it may be too late and your back to a situation where low quality events are all over.

 

[pid]

If the "Federation" is not in the business of telling people how much money to make, yet some tells you (out of courtesy mind you, bare in mind she didn't have to) they need more money why are the Federation so pissed about it?
Maybe Wendy is at risk of losing her house. Maybe she's got financial problems. Who knows? We can only speculate. Only she knows the reason. If her events are that bad then it'll fall flat surely? If i and i would bet any one of the people on these forums were in a position where they needed more money for whatever, be it bills, mortgage etc, but it meant displeasing others then they would. anyone who says different if full of ****. Anyone.

now I'm only speculating here but I'll expect the usual so go ahead.
Oh, and Bon. You type an awful lot like Robbo. Coincidence or head in a dark place?


EDIT: Also, if the Federation are so incensed about The Masters moving down south why aren't they applying the same responses in threads about Formula Five, Feekz etc. no disrespect to those guy I'm sure they're great. But they're in the south too. Just a thought for you.

 

[Bon]

If the "Federation" is not in the business of telling people how much money to make, yet some tells you (out of courtesy mind you, bare in mind she didn't have to) they need more money why are the Federation so pissed about it?
Maybe Wendy is at risk of losing her house. Maybe she's got financial problems. Who knows? We can only speculate. Only she knows the reason. If her events are that bad then it'll fall flat surely? If i and i would bet any one of the people on these forums were in a position where they needed more money for whatever, be it bills, mortgage etc, but it meant displeasing others then they would. anyone who says different if full of ****. Anyone.

now I'm only speculating here but I'll expect the usual so go ahead.
Oh, and Bon. You type an awful lot like Robbo. Coincidence or head in a dark place?

The Federation itself is not a money making organisation... but read Robbo's post, it clearly says

As an offset to any money lost from wendy's southern events, it was proposed she be given the Fed Cup [along with Chris] to recoup some of that capital.

The reason for Wendy to keep north was assumed to a) provide higher quality events all around, and b) allow the NSPL to get a stronger foothold down south, for the players, more compeition is better, more competition leads to more competative prices and higher quality events.

Speculation on my part, but makes sence no?


Anyway, just saying your going back on your word for more money without consulting people you agreed to be part of a commitee with is just bad character. Regardless of the situation. A persons word and character will hold the test of time better than any events. When this becomes more widespread and wendy goes south, will people want to go to her tournaments if they realise its for her own pocket, not the player like the CPPS seems.

As for me sounding like Robbo? Coincidence trust me. Maybe if you read back from my posts a few years you would see im a cynic.

 

[Exile]

It worked fine up until recently - go back to the peak of the game in the early 2000s and everyone would have laughed at the idea of a governing body dictating who can run events. Now that we've hit harsher economic conditions people are panicing. The issue isn't the system, it's poorly run businesses - over expansion, taking too much credit and a belief that the good times will always be around. They'll fold, as will poor promoters, players aren't going to pay money for substandard events (although I'll admit that the continued success of the MS does undermine that point a bit! ), there's no requirement for an over-arching body to try and artificially shore things up, it'll just be at best a pointless layer of bureaucracy with no teeth, at worst some godawful body like the FA in football.

Actually it's my belief that most 'ballers will go for the cheapest/most convenient/local option and just bitch about it, re-visiting the lesser tournament purely out of laziness, which gives the promoter a false sense of "job well done" - maybe 10-15% of teams will summon up the effort to travel outside of their comfort zone and explore a new venue/series without prompting, but most are too apathetic to care.