History discussion: Barbarossa

[Buddha 3]

Okay, here's one for the history buffs...

World War II was undoubtably the greatest conflict in human history. In reality this war was several conflicts rolled into one, with some nations fighting several wars at once.

Within this conflict, there was no greater war than the titanic struggle of Germany versus the USSR.

On the 22nd of June, 1941 Germany launched Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the Soviet Union. We all know the eventual outcome, Germany was utterly defeated, with the Russians claiming half of Europe.

How could this have happened? Despite the Soviets having far greater numbers in manpower, the Germans had the better cards. Their army was trained to a far greater level and was far more modern in its equipment and tactics. Up until the end of 1942 the German army captured Russians by the hundred thousands on a regular basis.
What happened? What went wrong? How come the Germans lost?

I know the answers, but I'm curious to know what you guys think.

 

[Potter Loki]

well i seem to remeber the siege Stalingrad being the turning point, once the T-34 began to be produced in serious numbers that became a factor (Kursk and all), didn't Hitler make some key mistakes strategy wise? Just remebered once of the Russian winters was particularly hard, the germans were not equipped for temperatures that low..?

 

[chuckwood]

1. War on two fronts that Hitler himself said he did not want in Mein Kampf due to this being a factor in Germany being defeated in WW1. The Russian Front consumed about 80% of all German forces after 1941 and this allowed the Allies to build up in the UK in relative 'peace'.

2. Declaring war on the USA in 1941 after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour and their first easy wins in the Pacific. Hitler's greatest mistake next to invading Russia in my opinion.

3. Underestimation through faulty intelligence-the Germans believed correctly that the Russian Officer corps had been physically and mentally decimated by the NKVD led purges in the mid thirties. They then viewed the Russians as Untermensch and did not rate their fighting abilities highly. This was further influenced by reports back from Poland when German & Russian troops met and their equipment was observed by German officers.

4.Not studying previous conflicts: the Russians had defeated Japan convincingly in 1939 in Mongolia and also had reversed a shocking start to the Finnish invasion in 1940. This should have been a warning to the Germans that the Russians could be very stupid but learnt quickly and did not fear losing thousands of men in the process.

5. Ignoring Russian progress: Industrial capacity of the USSR had increased dramatically in the last 10 years up to 1941 making Russia a industrial giant with several advantages over Germany. They had access to raw materials whereas Germany relied on imports of Oil, Iron ore to name a few. They also had the capacity to produce vehicles and weapons on a scale next to the USA.

6. Germany failed to win the 'hearts and minds' of the population of the USSR. Stalin had slaughtered millions after the uprising and forced collectivisation. Religion was outlawed and there were millions of people who would have happily supported the German regime when they invaded. Due to the Germans racial superiority complex of the time all Russians were viewed as sub human and treated as such. This allowed the USSR to build large partisan groups to tie down German troops in rear areas to good effect as they became more brutal in their responses to sabotage: population supports USSR instead.

 

[niallist]

Quick answer/

Agree with Potter, also to add the Romanian and Italian troops guarding the Germas flanks put up very little fight in the face of overwhelming Soviet power that Stalin had spent many months building up.

The sheer amount of Soviet tanks, hardware and soldiers made the end inevitable. Also the willingness of the Soviets to expend many, many lives in the pursuit of their objectives. It was a very different army to the one routed in 1941.

 

[Pmr Man]

6. Germany failed to win the 'hearts and minds' of the population of the USSR. Stalin had slaughtered millions after the uprising and forced collectivastion. Religon was outlawed and there were millions of people who would have happily supported the German regime when they invaded. Due to the Germans racial superiority complex of the time all Russians were viewed as sub human and treated as such. this allowed the USSr to build large partisan groups to tie down German troops in rear areas to good effect as they became more brutal in their responses to sabotage: population supports USSR instead.

my grandma was in Hungary at this time and the stories from her is that (she lived on a farm) the germans took whatever they wanted when they pushed past hungary. be that eggs, or food or whatever. then the USSR came to control Hungary and she came to live in england as the soviet collective farming etc wasn't the funnest proposition. so chuckwood; i strongly agree with that point

 

[TEKLOFTY]

The weather was a large factor, and as you said huge numbers.

 

[Buddha 3]

well i seem to remeber the siege Stalingrad being the turning point, once the T-34 began to be produced in serious numbers that became a factor (Kursk and all), didn't Hitler make some key mistakes strategy wise? Just remebered once of the Russian winters was particularly hard, the germans were not equipped for temperatures that low..?

Stalingrad was a major defeat for the Germans, no question about that, but not the turning point. In fact, the Soviets lost more men at Stalingrad (though they had less trouble replacing them).

The T34 had been in mass production way before Zitadelle (Kursk), the Germans were even fielding tanks in response to the T34 at that battle. The Panzer V Panther was a direct result of encounters with the T34, although these were never produced in anything near equal numbers.

Fact is the T34 wasn't as fantastic a weapon as it was cranked up to be. When it first came into battle, the standard German anti tank gun was a meager 3.7 cm gun, which had the nasty habit of bouncing off the T34's sloped armour.
However, the Germans had already learned the power of their monstrous 8.8 cm guns during the battle of France, and these were around in good numbers.
The German anti tank units were also upgrading to 5 cm and 7.5 cm guns, which had a nasty habit of making big holes in T34's. By late 1942 the only thing the T34 had going for it was better floatation on soft ground when compared to German tanks. They still lacked radios, with their crews relying on flags to signal each other. Tank versus tank encounters tended to end very lobsided and nasty for the Russians.

The winter had a lot to do with it, but only really in 1941/42.

 

[Potter Loki]

so what do you think Jay, you seem to be the WW2 history buff and i take an interest in the period?

 

[Buddha 3]

1. War on two fronts that Hitler himself said he did not want in Mein Kampf due to this being a factor in Germany being defeated in WW1. The Russian Front consumed about 80% of all German forces after 1941 and this allowed the Allies to build up in the UK in relative 'peace'.

2. Declaring war on the USA in 1941 after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour and their first easy wins in the Pacific. Hitler's greatest mistake next to invading Russia in my opinion.

3. Underestimation through faulty intelligence-the Germans believed correctly that the Russian Officer corps had been physically and mentally decimated by the NKVD led purges in the mid thirties. They then viewed the Russians as Untermensch and did not rate their fighting abilities highly. This was further influenced by reports back from Poland when German & Russian troops met and their equipment was observed by German officers.

4.Not studying previous conflicts: the Russians had defeated Japan convincingly in 1939 in Mongolia and also had reversed a shocking start to the Finnish invasion in 1940. This should have been a warning to the Germans that the Russians could be very stupid but learnt quickly and did not fear losing thousands of men in the process.

5. Ignoring Russian progress: Industrial capacity of the USSR had increased dramatically in the last 10 years up to 1941 making Russia a industrial giant with several advantages over Germany. They had access to raw materials whereas Germany relied on imports of Oil, Iron ore to name a few. They also had the capacity to produce vehicles and weapons on a scale next to the USA.

6. Germany failed to win the 'hearts and minds' of the population of the USSR. Stalin had slaughtered millions after the uprising and forced collectivisation. Religion was outlawed and there were millions of people who would have happily supported the German regime when they invaded. Due to the Germans racial superiority complex of the time all Russians were viewed as sub human and treated as such. This allowed the USSR to build large partisan groups to tie down German troops in rear areas to good effect as they became more brutal in their responses to sabotage: population supports USSR instead.

Good post, but there is more to it.

Some additions to your post:

1) There was no real war on two fronts when Germany invaded Russia. The British were holed up on their Island fortress, the US were not involved yet and would not really make their presence felt until well into 1943. Sure, there was some fighting in Africa, but Hitler never really saw Africa as a true front. Hence the horrific supply problems Rommel faced there.

2) The US would have declared war on him anyway. But still, it doesn't help to pick a fight with a giant.

3) The Russian officer corps WAS a mere shadow of what it was, thanks to Uncle Joe (Stalin). Stalin had singlehandedly almost lost the war before it even started.

4) The Germans learned that the Russians were unafraid of large amounts of casualties very quickly. Beating Japan was no big feat though. The Japanese army in central Asia wasn't their best and even the best Japanese troops were not comparable to the Russian and German juggernauts. The Japanese had cookie jars with tracks for tanks...

5) Yep.

6) Something like that. It's a little more complex than that, but it sums it up.

There were more reasons and Germany could have beaten Russia in 1941 (which was the plan anyway).
Here's a hint, look at dates.

 

[Buddha 3]

so what do you think Jay, you seem to be the WW2 history buff and i take an interest in the period?

Oh c'mon, I'll let you guys think a little while longer.