Hi guys,sorry havent got back sooner,been busy as moving house,missus,3 kids,3 dogs,a Protege and an ETEK2 in about 3 weeks so duty called. And lets face it,was getting a soup son heated around here,so was good to go away,digest and come back fresh without the cloud of profanity and venom that was beginning to form.
Still i guess thats why they call this section “speak ya brains,the place for trash talking ballers with attitude” Pretty accurate description.
Dskize and Skeet have stolen my fire a little but i am glad that i am not the only one to have similar perspectives on here,i was heavily involved in the warehouse party scene back in the day and we used to get many travellers (gypsies) come to our do's,they always looked after us and i am still in contact with some of them to this day,i have had the privelige to meet some of the more progressive and politically active members of the traveller community in my later life during my time working with members of the roma/gypsy/traveller community and found it really quite inspiring that even in the face of all that suspicion and sometimes unbridled ignorant hatred they still carry themselves with pride and dignity and continue to build bridges between the travelling community and the settled community. Particularly in the area of education for kids from the travelling community.
Yes there are people who live in caravans who can be a nuisance or worse,but that nuisance is not confined to settled people who live near a site,those folks generally are avoided by other travellers beacause they know only too well they are potential very bad news for a travellers site.
This is a parrallel that can be found in any settled community,i am from a council estate and i have walked on the wildside in my formative years and beyond,i have seen it,you have seen it.
Just because you live in a caravan doesnt mean your scum,just because you live in a house does'nt mean your not scum,res ipsa loquitor (it speaks for itself).
Well,we ended up breaching the “unwritten rule” and approached (rather rapidly and haphazardly in fairness) the taboo subjects of social politics and even touched on religion,thats dodgy territory on most occasions when your in the same room as everyone,and know everyone in the room,let alone in the world of potential ambiguity,impersonal detachment and possible mis interpretation that arguing in the written word on t'internet can afford.
But in the age of “narow casting” where we have all the means of communication afforded to us by modern technology yet still largely communicate our thoughts and ideas to like minded individuals i suppose its healthy to stick out your neck and try and “broad cast” to test ideas and concepts in situations where we will be challenged.
The thread did,i suppose predictably degenerate into something for a while which made the exercise
less valuable but as Mario stated it has at least stimulated a debate which has on some level been thought provoking,i hope it can continue to do so,it has made me re examine some old material and reassess my own views if nothing else. I dont want to get to heavily into the nuts and bolts for fear of sending our subscribers to sleep but if you'll humour me i will attempt to give what i was attempting to say some futher clarity now i dont feel under siege and its not some crazy hour of the morning.
If you will indulge me.
May I,before i carry on just say that i wish no ill to any of the contributors on this thread who got a bit heated,these sort of subjects are normally ones where people have strong emotional attachments to,whether or not they have examined them as an intellectual exercise is normally an entirly different thing,and thats where stuff can sometimes get sticky either way.
We all perceive the world according to our own frameworks and points of reference and the natural human response when this gets messed with is to react,often in a less than favourable fashion,and of course i include myself in that statement too.
Anyway,i digress.
I admit that my normally readily availabe sense of humour did get a bit bypassed at the outset and then there wasnt much to laugh about for a bit which didnt help,however i'll do my best to paint a picture so perhaps you can see where i was coming from.
I've spent the best part of my working life working with people who are stigmatised by society and treated like pariahs and outcasts,sometimes not without reason,more often than not,without any good reason. I dont,as some do,proffess to advocate on their behalf, but i also think it is important to try and reduce stigma and promote undestanding between groups of people and individuals. In a lot of senses its critical for us (British society) as a people to get a grip on the fact that our nation has changed,and wil continue to change.Hopefully for the better,but we are the masters of that destiny i suppose.
The now deleted thread at the start contained this passage (i'm not attacking the poster i am examining what he wrote)
“In school, we have had a new lad start, he's a traveller, and he's a right little sh*t. He's been trying to give me grief all week, calling me slaphead or whatever, so I've been calling him Rocky Dennis, because to be fair, he's an ugly lttle git. Obviously, he doesn't know who Rocky Dennis was because he's an idiot, and because I wouldn't call him that if I thought he did know. But it seems that noone else that I work with know who he was either. Most of my friends know who Rocky Dennis was, so why not the people I work with? Why am I left dealing out killer insults that nobody understands.? I swear to God, my colleagues a frigging dumbasses who have no place trying to educate kids. Even ugly gypsy ones.
Other than that, it's been a good week. Except for my housemate getting a new girlfriend who speaks at just the right pitch to be heard through the walls of any room you would care to put her in. It's like having her sat at the end of my bed talking away until 3am, pausing only to go to the toilet 50 times a night. Still, bit of eye candy at least.
Anyone else care to add anything? After you've googled Rocky Dennis that is ?
”
I take from the jist of it the poster is still at school? or god forbid someone working in education? (the “my colleagues..friggin dumbasses who have no place trying to educate kids,even ugly gypsy ones” gives that impression might be misreading it tho) Either way,it sets a tone that potrays less than innocent undertones and applies certain negative stereotypes to a particular group of folks that are many thousands of individuals. Why is it relevant to highlight that the kid is from a travellers site otherwise?
These posts followed,again i'm not doing a character assasination on the posters just dissecting and relaying the reasons i conscientiously objected to the content of their posts,in isolation,maybe banter,but taken in the context of the opening post and collectively as a whole the inference changes to something other than banter intentionally or not.
1)“i foooking hate pikeys.”
2)“So is the kid a proper pikey? I`ll take two dozen clothes pegs.”
3)“And a Dag, they always throw them in with deals “
4)“and i`m looking to get my drive tarmaced.
but i don`t won`t no fcuking heather, lucky or otherwise.”
5)“As if you'd ever get your drive done by a pikey.... I mean, they ain't got drives of their own ffs.”
Now,i'm a worldy genteleman with a dark sense of humour developed over years of dealing with lifes casualties ,but this is starting to read like something less savoury than banter,again considering the context given by the now removed first post.
I then stated an objection and then after a couple of folks basically told me i was over reacting,i reiterated that although i took Toms point (that its basically harmless) considering this is a publicly accessible forum (failing to mention at the time that children as young as 12 or less read whats on here,thus the “keep it PG” mantra) it probably is not conducive to good taste or in the spirit of paintball (we're trying to establish a sport no?) to be jiving like that.
When i put up thelink to article 97 of the joint committee on human rights i wanted people
to see that under the 2000 amended Race relations act the Irish and Gypsie travellers community are ecompassed as being included in the act,for those posters who say:
“Traveller, Gypsy, even PIKEY these are not races. They are just a group of people that chose a specific lifestyle”
I'm afraid your a little behind the times,nearly 20 years in fact.
For good or ill the Gypsy and Irish traveller communities were defined and recognised as “Ethnic groups” in 1989 and 2000 respectively and are afforded the same rights as any other ethnic group defined by the law. Discimination of the type defined by the original 1974 race relations act and its subsequent ammendments is potentially a breach of UK statute law.
I'm not saying..you swine you vill obey the law or be damned ! although reading back i can see a grounds for an interpretation like that,(in my defence it was the middle,of the middle of the night and i was feeling somewhat vexed) I was saying look,our country has decided this type of stuff is harmful to a fair and just society,from grass roots upwards. Its not just me man!
The power of language is phenomenal,without it we are unable to articulate and relay our thoughts and ideas,i think this writer can do a much better job of encapsualting this in the context we are talking of. This is an extract from a seminar entitled,
“The ethics of public speech-Presentation on “Discrimination in public speech”
Content related discrimination
“One form of content related discrimination is the racist stereotyping and stigmatisation of vulnerable groups through:
reducing a wide range of differences in people to simplistic categorizations;
transforming assumptions about particular groups of people into “realities”;
perpetuating social prejudice and inequality,
creating “we”- and “them”-groups,
applying different standards for referring to minority groups as opposed to members of the majority population,
being uncritical or unaware about cause and effect relations when referring to (negative/problematic) activities by individual members of minority groups “
Well,whether you agree with it or not,i think pretty much all those points could be found in the posts mentioned above, and thats why i was trying to say “guys,this is not right,this is not the message that needs to come across, because theres thousands of people that are gonna read it in a few hours,please try and be sensitive or maybe use a PM.This is offending my sensibilities. Maybe i'm being over sensitive or prudish in some folks eyes on this issue but i mean,like i said,why is it socially acceptable for you to write this stuff about one group of people,but you wouldnt dream of (at least publicly) writing this about another group?
I rhetorically made reference to the BNP,without ever expecting the response i got,my word you could have knocked me down with a feather. My later responses to those posts were clouded with anger really,as i said before,i have a mixed heritage (my fathers side of the family were from india ) and to hear someone chucking that into the pot was provocative to say the least.
For those of you who dont know,the BNP is lead in the most part from ex members of the National Front Party,they have become a little (only a little) less blatant about their agenda and have added a few more bells and whistle to their vaccuous manifesto of late.
The National Front days go back to mosely and the black shirts (see battle of cable street-1936) and beyond,our history conveniently glosses over the fact that the ideals of the National Socialist party of Hitlers Germany were quietly supported by many a Brit and indeed American ,layman,businessman,academic and politician alike ,before Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia,Churchill (who was staunchly anti NAZI,but certainly not anti fascist)was considering letting the Germans crack on in the shape of a treaty. Good job he had a change of heart. But even after the eventual capitualtion of the NAZI's and the horrors of the final solution (incidentally Nick Griffin is on the record as denying the Holocaust ever took place calling it a “holohoax” whilst editor of “the Rune”)those ideas never really went away.
The BNP has given longevity to outdated,outmoded and potentially disastrous thinking that breeds mistrust.division and hate within our society,it has an anti immigration “whites only” (now made more acceptable on face value by replacing the blatant “whites only” with “British people of British stock”-by default means White) core to the centre of its ethos.Nick Griffin (the curent leader of the BNP )left the ultranationalist and openly racist NF to form with other European fascists (so much for having nothing to do with europe eh Nicky?) including Italian Fascist Robert Fiore the “International Third Way” an ultra facist,openly racist group,some of Fiores associates were responsible for the bombing of a train station in Bolgna Italy in 1980 which murdered 80 people.
In October 1990, The British National Party was described by the European Parliament's committee on racism and xenophobia as an "openly Nazi party... whose leadership have serious criminal convictions".
The violent stewarding wing of the BNP who provided the physical back up for BNP rallies known as combat 18 were set up by the BNP.Combat 18 were responsible for numerous attacks on synagogues,mosques,restaraunts and businesses owned by non white British citizens in one publication stating all non-whites should "be shipped back to Africa, Asia, Arabia, alive or in body bags".Its members were urged to "execute" homosexuals and "white race mixers" and "weed out Jews in government, the media, arts and professions".
Combat 18 split from the BNP due to internal disagreements taking many BNP memebrs with it.
The BNP continues to push its agenda in much the same way as the NF did,by making sure they get their claws in wherever there is tension between communities,recruiting young men dissillusioned by their government who they see as abandonding their interests,not investing money into the areas leading to masive unemployment and low government spending,the BNP tell them what they want to hear,they (BNP)point the finger of blame towards people they identify as “outsiders” who are not welcome, those guys and girls heads get filled with what can only be described as hateful distortions of truth and then they get on board. Areas like Leeds,Leicester,Bradford etc have historically been targets for BNP recruiters.
I could go on and on about these guys,but if you want to know more i suggest go and find out,to illustrate the point membership of the BNP is banned within law enforcement agencies,the NHS and the armed forces to name but a few. Peoples impartiality to dispense their duties is obviously compromised when belonging to a political group like the BNP/NF.
With that in mind,(and that really is the tip,of the tip of the iceberg)and with the fact that this forum is accessed by many young impressionable minds,i ask you all in rhetorical fashion is this,is any place in a modern and tolerant society an acceptable platform to proclaim these ideals?. I really have a tough time accepting that an individual can be a member of a party like the BNP and
A) not be aware of its core policies,i've seen videos of BNP meetings in pubs recorded secretly,the material discussed in those meetings is not quite as carefully worded and measured as their official manifesto is .
B) Not agree with those policies,i mean at the very least their must be a chilling indifference to the destructive and divisive ideology that is the legacy of the NF now being promoted by the BNP in the UK.How can an intelligent person cherry pick a few policies that they agree with (i think tougher prisons seems to be the most popular one stated here) and overlook the other 95% of the policies?
In closing,i wish i could have had a cooler head when i posted up certain stuff,i let the side down in a way because i became reactionary when i should've walked away from the computer and done something else,had a think and then come back.I apologise for losing my rag,but the crux of the matter remains,when thousands of folks are reading,some sensitivity is required,language,written and spoken is the only medium we have to communicate ideas and concepts,language can be like fire,it can help us or it can burn us.
What we can laugh at we can face,i've certainly used a judicious amount of humour throughout my life to make light of many a bad situation,even gravely bad ones beyond many peoples imaginations. It is good to laugh,it is good to feel happy.
But i really do feel we have a responsibility to set an example on forums like this,theres many a young mind out there looking for input,trying to make sense of the world as well as trying to find out why his Angel has shootdown,lets be mindful that they are always watching,always reading and assimilating,we as adults need to take the care to instill positivity in them so they might inherit a world that is worth inheriting.
Heres some reading for those of you who can be bothered to follow up,i've bored you enough. I hope we can now continue to debate rationally and safe in the courage of our own convictions whatever they may be.
Respectfully
Chris
Links.
BNP history./links
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/programmes/2001/bnp_special/roots/
http://bnp.org.uk/tag/white-history-month/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Front
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/programmes/2001/bnp_special/roots/1984.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3481473/The-British-National-Party-a-brief-history.html
http://www.irishinbritain.com/iib_cms/?q=node/139
Travellers as an ethnic minority
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.com/pa/jt200405/jtselect/jtrights/88/8810.htm
Travellers rights afforded under law
http://www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrights/rights-of-gypsies-and-travellers/index.html
Role of language in discrimination
www.varuh-rs.si/fileadmin/user_upload/TWINNING/ETIKA_JB_GRADIVA/ Pollak_govor.doc -
Descrimination defined by the race relations act
http://www.emmainteractive.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9895&Itemid=3288
Race relations act as statute law
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?ActiveTextDocId=2059995
Battle of cable street
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street
Griffin holocaust denial
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/programmes/2001/bnp_special/the_leader/beliefs.stm
The real BNP
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/the-real-bnp/the-politics-of-the-BNP.php
