Do We Need the Millennium?
- Thread starter Robbo
- Start date
Dammit!
I'm jealous of you, you manage to say what I meant in so fewer words... Respect!
Jay, Mag, I think I can answer both of you in the same post.
Firstly Mag, we need a the MS to help develop our sport?
Really???
How far have we come in developing our sport in the last 5 years then with this premier league we now have?
Which particular benchmarks are you using to determine progress or development?
Jay, the whole ethos of being competitive now is lost for the vast majority of Europeans.
We have now proven beyond any shadow of doubt we can't keep pace with the Americans, this is certain and so what's the point in maintaining what looks like a false premise of 'competitiveness' when in reality, this has long since gone.
I am suggesting, we have now perhaps entered a new era of our sport where elitist doctrines are not the prime determinant.
No more do we focus on what the pros want or need, we must look at what the majority want or need and to that end, most want to have some fun.
A socialist approach to event promotion would most certainly improve attendances but we need to take one step at a time if we mean to go down this road.
Mag, Jay, we have all played at the top of our sports, it's hard to take a look outside of our boxes and seeing it from the average Joe paintballer's perspective immediately changes our considerations.
It's big picture paintball from now on maybes and the big picture doesn't have the pros in the foreground, it has the masses.
Firstly Mag, we need a the MS to help develop our sport?
Really???
How far have we come in developing our sport in the last 5 years then with this premier league we now have?
Which particular benchmarks are you using to determine progress or development?
Jay, the whole ethos of being competitive now is lost for the vast majority of Europeans.
We have now proven beyond any shadow of doubt we can't keep pace with the Americans, this is certain and so what's the point in maintaining what looks like a false premise of 'competitiveness' when in reality, this has long since gone.
I am suggesting, we have now perhaps entered a new era of our sport where elitist doctrines are not the prime determinant.
No more do we focus on what the pros want or need, we must look at what the majority want or need and to that end, most want to have some fun.
A socialist approach to event promotion would most certainly improve attendances but we need to take one step at a time if we mean to go down this road.
Mag, Jay, we have all played at the top of our sports, it's hard to take a look outside of our boxes and seeing it from the average Joe paintballer's perspective immediately changes our considerations.
It's big picture paintball from now on maybes and the big picture doesn't have the pros in the foreground, it has the masses.
Pete,
I'm not disagreeing with you. And to be honest, I didn't even have the pros in mind.
I fully agree with the disparity that now exist between Europe and the US. To stick with the football thing, even though the team I was talking about it now shooting for the European top, they ain't thinking about competing with the NFL, they'd get slaughtered. I guess it's the same with paintball.
I also agree that the focus will more and more go to the recreational side of paintball, and as long as they pay a bigger percentage of the bills, that's fine. There will however always be a number of teams that will have an interest in being competitive (or as competitive as they can be at least), or maybe even just trying something big and tournamentlike abroad. And for those teams, you need something like the MS.
Attendance may and probably will drop, but I think there will always be room for a series. Perhaps the size it used to be around the turn of the century, when some legs of the series had some 40-60 teams. It doesn't have to a large stage for them to compete on, it just has to be there and it has to have quality.
I'm not disagreeing with you. And to be honest, I didn't even have the pros in mind.
I fully agree with the disparity that now exist between Europe and the US. To stick with the football thing, even though the team I was talking about it now shooting for the European top, they ain't thinking about competing with the NFL, they'd get slaughtered.
I guess it's the same with paintball.I also agree that the focus will more and more go to the recreational side of paintball, and as long as they pay a bigger percentage of the bills, that's fine. There will however always be a number of teams that will have an interest in being competitive (or as competitive as they can be at least), or maybe even just trying something big and tournamentlike abroad. And for those teams, you need something like the MS.
Attendance may and probably will drop, but I think there will always be room for a series. Perhaps the size it used to be around the turn of the century, when some legs of the series had some 40-60 teams. It doesn't have to a large stage for them to compete on, it just has to be there and it has to have quality.
Well Pete I would say that not much has been achieved, but I may be a bit more optimistic than you are. Which lately isn't hard
Just beacuse we haven't done it yet doesnt mean we wont make it.
Magued
Edit Mag, I just had to fix your quote text. P
Pete,
I'm not disagreeing with you. And to be honest, I didn't even have the pros in mind.
I fully agree with the disparity that now exist between Europe and the US. To stick with the football thing, even though the team I was talking about it now shooting for the European top, they ain't thinking about competing with the NFL, they'd get slaughtered.
I also agree that the focus will more and more go to the recreational side of paintball, and as long as they pay a bigger percentage of the bills, that's fine. There will however always be a number of teams that will have an interest in being competitive (or as competitive as they can be at least), or maybe even just trying something big and tournamentlike abroad. And for those teams, you need something like the MS.
Attendance may and probably will drop, but I think there will always be room for a series. Perhaps the size it used to be around the turn of the century, when some legs of the series had some 40-60 teams. It doesn't have to a large stage for them to compete on, it just has to be there and it has to have quality.
My views have radically changed of late Jay as you are probably aware and many things have affected the way I think not least of which is my once strict adherence to competitive paintball being the future for our sport.
And in that context I 100% agree with what you say.
But once you disconnect the future of paintball from tournaments, what are we really left with?
I had better explain; in the days when paintball was all about optimism, growth was good, the future looked rosy and we looked likely candidates to burst onto TV, we needed a showcase and that showcase was understandably tournament ball; after all, we knew we wouldn't get anywhere promoting paintball as a cammo clad woodland game.
In this environment, we (Euros) could afford a competitive ethos, we could even cultivate one as I tried to do with Nexus in 2003 and we did pretty well on the international scene in our first year.
The point I am trying to make I suppose is, we can't really afford, or in fact cater for that type thinking to dictate the way we run or even structure events any more.
Catering for a competitive ethos can only be sustained where there is a reasonable chance that hard work will be rewarded but this has to be an opportunity open to a lot more than just Joy Division or the Russkies and the harsh reality is, it isn't mate.
And the opportunities for teams to try and get competitive (with the Yanks) are getting slimmer as we speak not least because of industry contraction but also to a lesser extent, player dissatisfaction and indifference.
The halcyon days of tournament paintball have gone, I think we need to cater for the fun element more and by definition this will be attracting a wider demographic anyway.
For those who are competitively minded, good luck to them, let them attend each and every event going, even spend their money traveling to the US if they feel the need, but for the vast majority...let's give them a frikkin good tourney where we can go up against the top Yanks if they choose to come across and have a blast getting our asses handed to us...to think we can compete with them?...I'm afraid that's a bus that's long since pissed off down the road mate, let's just enjoy the competitive game of paintball rather than trying to compete ...there is a significant difference.
You might think or even suggest I am selling out here because of my time in the pro ranks and you know full well I was always (and still am) a competitive mofo but I'm no fool and I ain't gonna go tilting at windmills ... I'll leave that indulgence to Senor Quixote, I like to think I have got a chance in any competitive endeavour; we, as Euro ballers have got no real chance of competing with the yanks...the sooner we learn to live with it, the better.
Am I being defeatist?
Maybes but I'd like to think I am being a pragmatist ... time will tell.
Mag, the whole point I am trying to make is, if we haven't done it now, then the industry as it is now, cannot underwrite or sustain or cultivate any more grandiose endeavours toward mainstream acceptance or TV.Well Pete I would say that not much have been achived, but I may be abit more optimistic than you are. Witch lately isnt hard
Just beacuse we havent done it yet doesnt mean we wont make it.
Magued
After all the money that's been ploughed into the pro scene, after all the TV productions and shows we have had, our industry is in decline and even you admit we ain't got nowhere, the money's run out mate, the TV bus has gone and mainstream acceptance is but a shadow in the past ... nothing more.
We gotta get real before we heal.
Frikkin 'eck, I'm a poet and now I know it
Pete,
Again, no disagreement from me. I think you missunderstand what I am trying to say (which may have something to do with the way I say it...it usually has
.What I mean when I speak of teams that want to be competitive, is teams that want to compete and achieve succes within realistic limits, meaning not compared to the big US guns. In the same way that you can't compare the American football that I play to the NFL. As you rightfully point out, the difference is just too big, with a few notable exceptions, suh as Joy and the Russians.
However, me not playing NFL doesn't mean I'm not in the gym every day, busting my gut, and training with the team at least 3 times a week. It makes me no less competitive, just on a different level.
At the same time, there are plenty of players and even entire team in Dutch American football that just play for the heck of it. They get together twice a week, play two games a month, and that's it. these guys play in a lower division. Which is fine too. I can't see why the same thing won't hold true for tournament paintball.
I never meant competitive in the sense that us Euros would be able to compete with the big US dogs anytime soon (or maybe ever again), again with some exceptions. Europe being able to compete with the US is a Utopian dream I gave up a loooooooooooong time ago. I think you and I actually think alike on this subject. I'm as cynical as you are.
As far as the events go, I hope there will be a development that will result in two types of event becoming commonplace. Namely the tournaments, perhaps in a smaller, 40-60 teams size. And perhaps something rec-bally. I have no idea what shape or form that last event will have, but interesting times are ahead.
Too much to do today, so I'll keep this short (hah!)
In the college league, we run a 'series' with lots of small events in each geography, and then at the end of the year everyone goes to the big national event which counts for double points. (It's double points to wipe out any differences in talent from one area to the other in the end result.)
Perhaps that's something that would work better in Europe. The British teams play 4 events a year in Britain in a national series, the French, Dutch, Germans, etc, all do the same, and you all rack up series standing points. If you REALLY want, you can pack up and play and of the other events offered in any of the other countries (college teams sometimes do this - the Northeast team might go play the South event because they feel they can beat up on those teams and rack up some points or just because they want to drink in a different state)
At the end of the year, everyone goes somewhere for the European Championships.
So all you really need to do is agree on a set of rules, pick a national series in each country to run that country's events, and have a committee that organizes ONE event a year instead of five.
Much less toll on the organizers, much less financial toll on the teams, everybody gets to play, and you're even more accessible to a lot of teams that might be able to compete if they only had to travel once a year instead of four times.
In the college league, we run a 'series' with lots of small events in each geography, and then at the end of the year everyone goes to the big national event which counts for double points. (It's double points to wipe out any differences in talent from one area to the other in the end result.)
Perhaps that's something that would work better in Europe. The British teams play 4 events a year in Britain in a national series, the French, Dutch, Germans, etc, all do the same, and you all rack up series standing points. If you REALLY want, you can pack up and play and of the other events offered in any of the other countries (college teams sometimes do this - the Northeast team might go play the South event because they feel they can beat up on those teams and rack up some points or just because they want to drink in a different state)
At the end of the year, everyone goes somewhere for the European Championships.
So all you really need to do is agree on a set of rules, pick a national series in each country to run that country's events, and have a committee that organizes ONE event a year instead of five.
Much less toll on the organizers, much less financial toll on the teams, everybody gets to play, and you're even more accessible to a lot of teams that might be able to compete if they only had to travel once a year instead of four times.
OK Jay, I think we now pretty hold much the same views, which never really surprises me so I don't really know why I bothered to even question you.Pete,
Again, no disagreement from me. I think you missunderstand what I am trying to say (which may have something to do with the way I say it...it usually has
What I mean when I speak of teams that want to be competitive, is teams that want to compete and achieve succes within realistic limits, meaning not compared to the big US guns. In the same way that you can't compare the American football that I play to the NFL. As you rightfully point out, the difference is just too big, with a few notable exceptions, suh as Joy and the Russians.
However, me not playing NFL doesn't mean I'm not in the gym every day, busting my gut, and training with the team at least 3 times a week. It makes me no less competitive, just on a different level.
At the same time, there are plenty of players and even entire team in Dutch American football that just play for the heck of it. They get together twice a week, play two games a month, and that's it. these guys play in a lower division. Which is fine too. I can't see why the same thing won't hold true for tournament paintball.
I never meant competitive in the sense that us Euros would be able to compete with the big US dogs anytime soon (or maybe ever again), again with some exceptions. Europe being able to compete with the US is a Utopian dream I gave up a loooooooooooong time ago. I think you and I actually think alike on this subject. I'm as cynical as you are.
As far as the events go, I hope there will be a development that will result in two types of event becoming commonplace. Namely the tournaments, perhaps in a smaller, 40-60 teams size. And perhaps something rec-bally. I have no idea what shape or form that last event will have, but interesting times are ahead.
I suppose I was not appreciating the fact that even though we realise we cannot compete with the Yanks, it still allows competition to thrive in Europe, albeit at a lower level.
I think I probably let my experience cloud my judgment in that if I couldn't aim at the top of my sport, then for me, there wasn't really that much point, which on reflection is a pretty arrogant way of looking at things but remember, in my day, we could aim for the top and have a chance of getting there.
Marcus Davis took his UK Preds and smacked the hell outa the Yanks; a long time ago yes but he did it.
Nexus at least competed with the top Yanks in 2003, I know they couldn't do it now but at least it was achieved then and so maybes I was believing that if this opportunity was never achievable, then I doubt I would have put Nexus together in the first place and I doubt whether Marcus would have stayed with the Preds for as long as he did.
He had a goal, worked for it and damn well got it .... that opportunity has now gone and won't return in the short to mid terms no matter what people suggest.
Magued has done a fantastic job with his squad and I admire him so much for his achievements because he hasn't had great financial support, nowhere near what Nexus had, and yet, they have got up there with the best in the world.
He had a somewhat unique set of conditions in that his player base stayed loyal, they were committed to training and at all times listened to what Magued had to say. This trilogy of conditions is one of the main reasons they achieved the success they have.
I don't in any way mean to diss WDP in saying Joy didn't have great financial support, the actual cash injection wasn't anywhere near as much as some of the big guys but WDP's loyalty was also crucial to Joy's success and Magued would be the first to credit them, as do I.
Magued is the sole reason why us Euros can at least have some dignity in the US, Sergey had millions of dollars at his disposal and it was almost inevitable he would eventually churn out a top team, Magued had no such luxury, that guy did it because he had a goal, he knows paintball and his guys had faith in him..... Respect !