Is paintball being promoted enough in the UK?

[Buddha 3]

Liz, and at the same time gal, me and you both know plenty of guys who own sites who ain't exactly skint ........

The potential to earn plenty of money is there and is dependant somewhat on how well you run the site.
The three main determinants in how much you earn with a paintball site are catchment area, quality of site (how well you tun it) and level of local marketing.
These 3 considerations underpin every Paintball site in the UK and if you ain't earning money, then for the most part, you only got ureself to blame.
We all know the product is extremely attractive but if people don't know it's there or if they turn up and it's not packaged right, then you are gonna make jack sh!t.

And to give people an idea of just how our site owners think, I once mentioned in another thread we should do the following and I know you are able to do this as well as me Liz because you been around ever since I can remember :- Go back in ure mind 10 years, take a walk through Sidcup (Doug's site), take a walk thru Niall's site, in fact take a walk thru virtually every site that was around 10 years ago and get an average feel for what they offer in terms of facilities,, prices, variety of Paintball options, safety, toilets etc etc etc.
Once you have that average 'feel', jump forward into time and now go round our sites......getting the picture Liz???

It's hardly changed one frikkin bit, the level of investment is zip, the customer consideration levels remains virtually unchanged, facilities (availability of walk ons) have actually contracted. toilets...oh my god....I'll say no more..and the list goes on gal.... it's no good us looking for excuses to give our site owners a back door when their inability to run a business properly is staring us in the face every time we visit the average site.

And this can all be explained by the phrase I often use when describing the guys we have as our portfolio of site owners, 'Del boy businessmen', that's all they are. The 'money in the back pocket brigade' without about as much business acumen as a pork pie.

Sure we have to factor in legitimate business concerns but not at the expense of ignoring the real shortfalls.

Pete,

I am not as intimately aware of the majority of the paintball businesses in the UK as I am of those in Holland. As I explained in the UK disgrace thread, it is quite possible for site operators to do as you suggest. I've seen it happen, so it's possible.
But the price that punters pay for a days shootin' will not change because of it. There is a fixed cost per customer after all, and Liz has pointed out how much that is pretty accurately.
Again, how much the punters pay is, I feel, not the issue. The real issue is providing the opportunity for those who get hooked to play. And before anybody starts making suggestions on that, please go read Pete's UK disgrace thread in the MLT section, it has all been discussed in there already.

Another major issue I noticed in this thread, is promotion.
AndyDane points out that the site he frequents organises regular walkon days, but they are not advertised. And new people only find out about them if they happen to have a guy marshalling who plays on these days himself. THAT is also one of the real problems. And it is very much indicative of what Pete mentions; a very bad sense of real business...
I used to train the site staff of what is the largest paintball site in Holland. The very first thing that I drummed into the skulls of the people working the fields and the safe zone, is that they MUST promote paintball in all it's forms to the punters that come in. During the weekends we usually had a number of teams training as well, so people could see what it was all about and to provide proof that we are not just Ramboing around.
On days that I went to the site, I always made a point to have a chat with the people that came to play, asking some questions that would tell me whether or not the staff on the day had told them about upcoming events like walkon days, in other words, promoted paintball. If they hadn't, there would be hell to pay. Failure to do so over a period of time would get you fired!
Paintball is an activity that exists on the periphery of the human mind. In order to get people's attention drawn to it, we have to point them towards it. I even went so far as to do a pop quiz sometimes, asking the staff, before they drove to the field, what our upcoming events would be. A wrong reply would result in a spanking... Yes, you have to be that childish sometimes if you want to make things work.

If you don't promote the possibility of playing paintball as a non-rental activity, you may as well not bother organising the dates for it...

So to answer the original question is paintball being promoted in the UK enough? The answer seems like a hearty NO. But that's got f*ck all to do with putting up some posters for the Campaign Cup...

 

[Liz]

Liz, and at the same time gal, me and you both know plenty of guys who own sites who ain't exactly skint ........

The potential to earn plenty of money is there and is dependant somewhat on how well you run the site.
The three main determinants in how much you earn with a paintball site are catchment area, quality of site (how well you tun it) and level of local marketing.
These 3 considerations underpin every Paintball site in the UK and if you ain't earning money, then for the most part, you only got ureself to blame.
We all know the product is extremely attractive but if people don't know it's there or if they turn up and it's not packaged right, then you are gonna make jack sh!t.

And to give people an idea of just how our site owners think, I once mentioned in another thread we should do the following and I know you are able to do this as well as me Liz because you been around ever since I can remember :- Go back in ure mind 10 years, take a walk through Sidcup (Doug's site), take a walk thru Niall's site, in fact take a walk thru virtually every site that was around 10 years ago and get an average feel for what they offer in terms of facilities,, prices, variety of Paintball options, safety, toilets etc etc etc.
Once you have that average 'feel', jump forward into time and now go round our sites......getting the picture Liz???

It's hardly changed one frikkin bit, the level of investment is zip, the customer consideration levels remains virtually unchanged, facilities (availability of walk ons) have actually contracted. toilets...oh my god....I'll say no more..and the list goes on gal.... it's no good us looking for excuses to give our site owners a back door when their inability to run a business properly is staring us in the face every time we visit the average site.

And this can all be explained by the phrase I often use when describing the guys we have as our portfolio of site owners, 'Del boy businessmen', that's all they are. The 'money in the back pocket brigade' without about as much business acumen as a pork pie.

Sure we have to factor in legitimate business concerns but not at the expense of ignoring the real shortfalls.

Pete I know things that should have improved, haven't. Though at least now you can virtually guarantee a portaloo even when they don't have mains water/sewerage, rather than a rusty bucket behind badly fitting sheets of corrugated iron & a bit of sacking for a doorway!
I was reacting to the people here who have no idea at all about what it costs to run a rental day, and seem to think that every penny over what the site owner pays for the paint is pure profit in their pocket - rather than most of that "profit" going towards covering costs.

Same old same old - people think running a site is money for old rope & you can rake in the cash for little effort, whereas even those who ARE doing very well for themselves have had to put in the time & effort over the years. Same as running a tournament, everyone thinks THAT is easy with guaranteed big profits, until you go through the full costings with them

 

[Robbo]

And back on topic, i think that paintball is still growing in the uk. i have not been playing it for as long as some people here and im sure some of the wisers ones will correct me if im wrong though i am guessing if you compared uk paintball now to what it used to be 10 years ago you would be supprised how it has grown so much, take the UK masters for example!

i personally think we are just growing still but we all want to be on a par with the americans as they are ahead of us and we all think it looks better. i bet they went through this stage when they were growing up.

With no disrespect intneded trenzo but I'm afraid you are completely wrong, go back 10 years and there was a much healthier tourney scene than there is now and that goes for every level, pros, ams and novices, so I am not really sure where you get your information from but wherever you get it, ignore it.

 

[domo247]

When people say the general public don’t know much about paintball I think that is because they don’t want to.

My parents have seen super air paintball but they would never play it and certainly never watch a paintball competition unless it was maybe in the Olympics.

If people like paintball they will generally find out about it them selves through magazines and the net. Paintball is never going to be widespread until the prices match the prices of other sports. A £300 paintball gun and the other kit could cover the costs of my football for 5 years for example.

30 year olds can’t afford to play ball so never mind 16 year olds like me. My parents can afford for me to play but they don’t want to give me £300 a month for 2-4 days out. When they know I can go and play football or hang around with friends for the cost of a couple of drinks and a sandwich.

So the fact is I think even if everyone knew about paintball I doubt there would be that there would a huge influx of followers because of the ridiculously high prices for equipment and tournament entry fees not to mention transport around the country.

Paintball also has no heritage unlike football and cricket.


And please none of the “paintball equipment is not overpriced” I’m not moaning I buy it but either way it’s too expensive for most.

 

[domo247]

And I believe all you have to do to promote tournament paintball is have some type of information/magazines and links to websites at wood ball paintball sites.

I am sure that is probably everyone’s first experience of paintball so if they like the sport they can find out about it whilst there playing it! And also nice paintball marshals that I’m sure exist can tell them all about ‘real paintball’ I, between games..

 

[Robbo]

Pete I know things that should have improved, haven't. Though at least now you can virtually guarantee a portaloo even when they don't have mains water/sewerage, rather than a rusty bucket behind badly fitting sheets of corrugated iron & a bit of sacking for a doorway!
I was reacting to the people here who have no idea at all about what it costs to run a rental day, and seem to think that every penny over what the site owner pays for the paint is pure profit in their pocket - rather than most of that "profit" going towards covering costs.

Same old same old - people think running a site is money for old rope & you can rake in the cash for little effort, whereas even those who ARE doing very well for themselves have had to put in the time & effort over the years. Same as running a tournament, everyone thinks THAT is easy with guaranteed big profits, until you go through the full costings with them

Liz, betwixt and between the two extremes of guys earning bundles of dosh and others scraping a living, lie the majority of our site owners, and all of them could do with a 101 class in basic economics, investment, forecasting and customer care.
Liz, you already know I don't suffer fools gladly but if there's one thing I detest more than an idiot, it's greedy people, especially when that greed is accompanied a complete lack of professionalism which so often seems to be the case when I cast my eye toward the majority of our site owners.

There are obviously many exceptions to this classification but if the majority of our site owners were good then we really wouldn't be in the state we are in now.

 

[PortoX]

And I believe all you have to do to promote tournament paintball is have some type of information/magazines and links to websites at wood ball paintball sites.

I am sure that is probably everyone’s first experience of paintball so if they like the sport they can find out about it whilst there playing it! And also nice paintball marshals that I’m sure exist can tell them all about ‘real paintball’ I, between games..

hope you werent implying anything ...

but to be fair mate most marshals simply cant play tourneys because of the work on a sunday clashing with tourney days ... plus the wages are poor at most sites so we are a rare breed!

i like the idea of tourney at woodsball ... sounds alot like what warren maxwells done down south hopefully we can do the same with our site in the new year

www.wildparkleisure.com

looking at a new tourney facility for the new season

 

[domo247]

hope you werent implying anything ...

but to be fair mate most marshals simply cant play tourneys because of the work on a sunday clashing with tourney days ... plus the wages are poor at most sites so we are a rare breed!

No tom your one of the paintball marshals we all love! What I mean is though for people who interested the marshals can point them in the direction of these forums or what would be good magazines information packs relating to tournament paintball which are given/sold on site.

 

[Robbo]

Pete,

I am not as intimately aware of the majority of the paintball businesses in the UK as I am of those in Holland. As I explained in the UK disgrace thread, it is quite possible for site operators to do as you suggest. I've seen it happen, so it's possible.
But the price that punters pay for a days shootin' will not change because of it. There is a fixed cost per customer after all, and Liz has pointed out how much that is pretty accurately.
Again, how much the punters pay is, I feel, not the issue. The real issue is providing the opportunity for those who get hooked to play. And before anybody starts making suggestions on that, please go read Pete's UK disgrace thread in the MLT section, it has all been discussed in there already.

Another major issue I noticed in this thread, is promotion.
AndyDane points out that the site he frequents organises regular walkon days, but they are not advertised. And new people only find out about them if they happen to have a guy marshalling who plays on these days himself. THAT is also one of the real problems. And it is very much indicative of what Pete mentions; a very bad sense of real business...
I used to train the site staff of what is the largest paintball site in Holland. The very first thing that I drummed into the skulls of the people working the fields and the safe zone, is that they MUST promote paintball in all it's forms to the punters that come in. During the weekends we usually had a number of teams training as well, so people could see what it was all about and to provide proof that we are not just Ramboing around.
On days that I went to the site, I always made a point to have a chat with the people that came to play, asking some questions that would tell me whether or not the staff on the day had told them about upcoming events like walkon days, in other words, promoted paintball. If they hadn't, there would be hell to pay. Failure to do so over a period of time would get you fired!
Paintball is an activity that exists on the periphery of the human mind. In order to get people's attention drawn to it, we have to point them towards it. I even went so far as to do a pop quiz sometimes, asking the staff, before they drove to the field, what our upcoming events would be. A wrong reply would result in a spanking... Yes, you have to be that childish sometimes if you want to make things work.

If you don't promote the possibility of playing paintball as a non-rental activity, you may as well not bother organising the dates for it...

So to answer the original question is paintball being promoted in the UK enough? The answer seems like a hearty NO. But that's got f*ck all to do with putting up some posters for the Campaign Cup...

Jay, get yer ass over here mate and try to convince our guys of the business sense of expanding their product base in offering up Sup Air and you got as much chance of being successful as Danny Devito in the Olympic triple jump final.
Even tho you could lay it on a plate for them and reference the Dutch success of the plan I am suggesting, they still wont do it, can't do it, whatever.

It's either short- sightedness, bigotry or lack of intellect, takes yer pick mate coz sure as hell, I am beginning to think it's a combination of all 3.

PS You coming to Campaign?

 

[Tartan Blaster]

How is a price unreasonable if it'll only make you break even?
And I know plenty of sites that are filled to capacity every weekend over spring, summer and autumn AND get tons of return customers.
I always get a little frustrated having these discussions with people. You guys mean well, I'll admit that, but you really don't have a clue as to what it costs to make a site work. I do. And going paintballing as a punter for a day is NOT expensive. Try carting. That'll set you back at least 15 quid, and you only get to drive for what? 30 minutes?
If you all are so damn convinced that people won't make the switch to getting their own gear if they think a box of paint costs 120, then how come I see it happening all the time? How come you started playing? How come the guy that told you you could play started playing? Your arguments hold no water... The only people that complain about the prices of paint are tournament players, many walkons don't care...they are only more pleased to find out they have to pay less than they thought.

Here's what often happens: Punters come and pay for a certain deal, usually this includes X amount of paintballs. They go and play. They like it. They want to play some more. They buy an extra box of paint. Let's say 10 people buy one box, that's 200 paintballs a person. This'll allow them to play something like 2 games more. Site owner gets the money, and has to pay his marshalls more, because they have to keep working longer. Lower the price of that box of paint might mean you will sell more paint (probably won't even be that much). Yes, you will have a higher turnover, but your costs will go up a lot more, because all of a sudden, your marshalls have to work even longer to ensure all the paint bought gets blasted...
See where this is going? You guys are thinking about this way too easily, just as a lot of site owners are, but that's a different discussion... Try to see the real and big picture.

The price is not the issue guys, get over it. The issue is facilitating those who wish to play on a more regular basis. THAT is what's going wrong.

Ok I stand corrected there are some sites that can fill up to capacity week in week out at those prices I don't claim to know the situation of every paintball site but I severly doubt those sites are also the ones that are barely breaking even are they? Also what do you pay your marshal?? I was under the assumption that the majority where payed at the minimum wage which means that basically a punter just buying one extra pod of paint will cover a marshal wages for an hour so they will obviously do better if more paint is sold and I think more paint would be sold than the cost of dropping the paint for sites as speaking from my own experience I know that the first time I played I was limiting myself to a pod a game because I wanted to play as long as possible and winced whenever I shot a ball due to the expense and I know my friends who were thinking along the same lines all did the same (the rest used up all their paint in one game and of course hated the rest of the day eg no return custom). But again I was mainly talking about sites that aren't filled to capacity and struggle to break even. And yes running a site is expensive but as you keep pointing out it cost sites more than the price of paint with insurance and rentand all that stuff but this has to be payed whether the site is in use or not so all I was saying is that sites that are only breaking even shouldn't have the kneejerk reaction of raising prices and I don't see whats wrong with that?

ps what on earth is carting?