The vanguard creed

[Robbo]

Matty: If I had a penny for every time I've heard, 'Oh yeah, I know I'm sponsored by [insert whoever] but it's not the reason I am promoting their products' ...... I'd be a frikkin millionaire
It's OK Matt, you ain't alone mate but maybe you should have declared as much before you embarked upon the hallelujah Creed trail

And just one more thing Matt .. how many other sponsored offers did you get for your team in terms of other types of marker?
And here I am referring to the top end markers such as the Ego, Geo, Dm's, Axes etc ...
I gotta feeling, and if you are honest with us all, the Creed was the only subsidised gat you had on offer and so the team selection wasn't so much quality based as financial ... now this ain't such a bad thing, I'm not saying that but it does affect your opinion mate.

McLovin: I think you make the point I've been trying to without realising mate .... you say you have 'owed a few creeds some have been good and others I've had nothing but trouble with. But that can be with any marker' ..... the thing is Mac, you go buy a DM or an Ego / Geo, and you ain't gonna have that trouble .. outa the box these markers have proved time and time again they can perform .. and they do this for the vast, vast majority of time with no problems whatsoever ... and this is the exact reason why people are willing to pay that extra to have that trouble free performance.

When I wanted to do my laminar flow modifications to a marker, the reason I chose the Ego to do it with, ain't just because Ledz and Julian [owners of Planet] are mates of mine, I did it because I needed a secure platform to work with.
It was no use me plugging all my money into a marker to produce a more accurate performance just for it to fail because the original marker wasn't designed or manufactured well enough ... the Ego passed all of my performance requirements with flying colours ..

After all, when you buy a gat, it's generally just the one but when I selected the Ego, I was gonna invest tens of thousands and so I just had to be sure the gun I chose performed as perfectly as is humanly possible ... and for me, it does just that ..hence the Ego Prime [/shameless plug]f

And as a top player, you cannot afford to have 'trouble' with your gat ...and as you you tend to imply, if you buy a number of these lower end markers, you will find some of them do work but the incidence of failure is significantly higher than with the markers I have just exampled.

In this life, Mac you get what you pay for ... and that relates to paintball markers as it does for everything else.
If you take your paintball seriously, then you have to buy a serious gat ...it's as easy as that mate.

 

[Gadget]

To some extent I agree with you Pete, but wouldn't you say there is also a law of diminishing returns when it comes to spending money on a marker? Certainly an Ego is likely to perform better out of the box than a low end marker, it's likely to be more consistent, more efficient, lighter, easier to strip down and have a board which has more configuration options, you're also likely to get a better fit and finish. However compare an Ego 11 with something like an Angel A1 Fly and I think it would be hard to argue that you're getting almost £300 of additional performance from the Ego - in fact the performance is likely to be almost equal, with each having advantages and disadvantages.

So why do more people buy Egos or NTs or (insert a.n.other marker here) and why do people pay a premium for them? One reason is fashion. Spend 5 mins on the hellhole that is PBnation and it's easy to see how irrational the masses are and the actual performance of a specific marker has little influence on their buying decisions - if Mr H from HK is shooting one, then OMG they must be like, SO sick (not enough rolleyes in the world). Angels are a great example - they're not cool any longer, so few people buy them. It's not the performance, it's not the cost, it's that they're uncool - any Angel thread on PBN immediately gets a bunch of 'Angels suck' posts from kids who have never even held one, let alone owned one. (I don't own an Angel btw, just a good example).

I agree that if you're serious about paintball you should buy a serious gat, but once you get above a certain level you start paying a premium for bling and name without getting any additional performance.

 

[baudsenseless]

As a slighly different perspective, There is the fact that "insert top brand here" (in my case I shoot eclipse) will have the avalibility of spares for some time to come and that there is a greater pool of knowlege regarding teching and upgrading said markers.
I know my current 08 ego marker will keep up and perform as well as 96% (ish!) of all the markers out there. to get that extra % you go for newer markers, and more expensive markers.
A creed in its latest guise is a very high performing marker especially at the 2nd hand prices that are floating around the forum, but I personally don't have the confidence of parts supply as I would with dye etc This is not nessaciarrly from the supplyers but there is always the 2nd hand market. I've currently restored a 05 marker, will I be able to do this with a creed in 5 yrs time? its something you have to either take a gamble on or not keep it that long!!

 

[Gadget]

Yep, spares availability is always a worry, which is a good reason to go for a mass-market rather than fringe marker - the Automag is what...19/20 years old and spares are still readily available (although you need to buy from the states) from both the manufacturer and a range of specialist dealers.

It's a shame that so many markers require bespoke seals rather than just generic o-rings and with electros the availability of solenoids (not so much boards as there's usually a generic board like the UTB that can be pressed into service) is a big issue.

 

[grmmff]

i got 2 v2 creeds when our team became sponsered by vanguard. my back up still only has around 1700 shots through it as my main gun has been very reliable. what i will say about vanguard is thier customer service is second to none. any problem that the team has had Martin at vanguard has always been there to sort it out/ replace any spares that needs replacing. half the reason for our team takin vanguards sponsership deal was down to their customer service, our team captin bought a 2nd hand creed from the forums and had a problem so he phoned vanguard to get advice . the next day martin drove from the factory to milton keynes and sorted out the 2nd hand gun. he made us the sponsership offer a few days later and we havnt looked back.

 

[Robbo]

To some extent I agree with you Pete, but wouldn't you say there is also a law of diminishing returns when it comes to spending money on a marker? Certainly an Ego is likely to perform better out of the box than a low end marker, it's likely to be more consistent, more efficient, lighter, easier to strip down and have a board which has more configuration options, you're also likely to get a better fit and finish. However compare an Ego 11 with something like an Angel A1 Fly and I think it would be hard to argue that you're getting almost £300 of additional performance from the Ego - in fact the performance is likely to be almost equal, with each having advantages and disadvantages.

So why do more people buy Egos or NTs or (insert a.n.other marker here) and why do people pay a premium for them? One reason is fashion. Spend 5 mins on the hellhole that is PBnation and it's easy to see how irrational the masses are and the actual performance of a specific marker has little influence on their buying decisions - if Mr H from HK is shooting one, then OMG they must be like, SO sick (not enough rolleyes in the world). Angels are a great example - they're not cool any longer, so few people buy them. It's not the performance, it's not the cost, it's that they're uncool - any Angel thread on PBN immediately gets a bunch of 'Angels suck' posts from kids who have never even held one, let alone owned one. (I don't own an Angel btw, just a good example).

I think there is some truth here Gadge; I realise there is this premium attached to the top end guns but I also think, for that extra reliability, slickness of operation and also of course the extra toppings such as service, configuration options etc people are willing to pay that extra albeit with a fair chunk of that 'extra' being name/fashion related.

The reason these guns become 'fashionable' isn't due to some ridiculous, unsubstantiated whim, as fashion normally is ... there is real substance to why these acheive the status of 'fashionable' ... there is functionality involved.
People buy gats primarily to function , they then think about form [aesthetics] as a secondary.

There has been no example I know of, whereby a fashionable gat was sh!t to play with .... it just don't happen in paintball because these things are just too damned expensive.

Paintball guns that don't work properly or have some other inherent fault just don't become fashionable and this is because they can't ever get over that first prime requirement of functionality ... as ballers, we want and need a gun's function as our number one feature.

You make mention of the Angel; that was fashionable once for all the right reasons but then it went out of fashion ... we all know why that happened.
It wasn't as your post tends to imply, for reasons of mere whim or fancy and independent of performance, these things happen for very real reasons mate.

I agree that if you're serious about paintball you should buy a serious gat, but once you get above a certain level you start paying a premium for bling and name without getting any additional performance.

Agreed mate but I suppose my point is, if you can get top performance AND buy a cool gat .. then you gotta pay for that .... it's the way of the world ... if it wasn't, there would be no market for snide gear .. I mean, things like fake Boss, Armani and Gucci clothes ... we all love looking cool apparently

 

[no1flav]

The Creed is like a TVR car! And I love TVR's!

Its one of the best markers I have fired and suits my personal preferences. Everyone likes different guns and this debate will end up no where. We can start the same thing between the NT's and Ego's.

The features on a std creed out weigh any over gun (in the same price range) but you have to take into account the realiability of the creed. When adding the LW rammer and double O ring button I beleive the is perfect FOR ME (assuming its firing correctly of course).

I currently shoot a creed v2 and use a DM9 for back up. the DM9 is nails and realiable but not as nice as the creed, its heavy, plain and boring. I am currently swapping this Dm for another creed.

i am not supported by vanguard but am open to offers ha!

 

[Robbo]

The debate only ends up nowhere if you ignore what people say which isn't really the spirit in which these forums operate.
People have opinions [like yourself] based upon personal experience and the ability to think reasonably; I think it self-evident you've divorced yourself from thinking reasonably after stating this thread goes nowhere, and so others can now allocate your post into its proper context.

It's pretty obvious people like different things for different reasons and threads like this educate other people in terms of whether or not these preferences can be reasonably supported.
Threads like this do go somewhere .. they can teach people what's important about performance and consequent selection but of course, you know different and this is the reason why you believe the vanguard is comparable to a TVR.

 

[arg1271]

I've owned and shot a load of markers from a phantom back in the day to a V2 creed now, it's a great marker and outperforms anything I have owned in the past in terms of accuracy and efficiency.

Biased opinion ? maybe, I get the sponsored deal like grmmf and mclovin but at the end of the day it works and that's really what matters when you come down to it. I'm not saying it's better than an ego, geo, nt but it seems to work just as well.

Opinions are like @rseholes... everyone's got one

 

[upzii]

crikey why do threads always go to sh*t on this forum... no offence robbo but your the owner of the forum so your bound to get sh*t from people even if they agree or not, they do it because they are awkward, and it just makes you look silly when you edit their posts. delete there post and pm them, if they persist ban them ?
The creed is mechanically an AMAZING marker that surpassed many other markers in that price range straight off the bat, i personally have watched some amazing things with vanguard. My friend had a simple leak so he took it to vanguard as he lives 5 minutes away. He collected it two days later completely overhauled and even been re-machined to have a part from the demon inside, Granted we are sponsored by vanguard which does help.
(the team does have ego8's, ego9's and two geo's as backup markers because they ARE so dependable)
Dont know why there is so much bashing of other companies :/ every one has their perks and downfalls