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Question ...

Buddha 3

Hamfist McPunchalot
100% agree Jay but .... [you know I'd come up with one :)] is there a case to answer whereby the correlation becomes something that is synonymous and can we also suggest that a cultural trait is an emergent property of race in that if one is born into Race X, part of that race's culture is to commit crime ..... with these points being understood [not agreed upon though, I am not trying to put words into your mouth here] is there a point where cultural behaviours become racial traits?
Not really. Race and culture are vastly different things. Every race covers a myriad of cultures, some of which would be considered "criminal" to our western European standards, some of which wouldn't.
The Caucasian people cover all sorts of cultures, ranging from English binge drinkers, through pikeys, to the hardcore ethnic cleansers of the Balkans and the Caucasus. Many of these don't even look alike, yet are part of the same race.
Black people come in all shapes and sizes too. The nomadic tribes of the Sahara, the black Arabs of the Horn of Africa, the Masai and Zulu just to name a few. All of these wildly different in culture, some of them violent, some of them not so.
Asians? A race could hardly be more physically and culturally diverse than the Asians.

Within these races, the levels of "accepted" criminality and violent behavior is determined by what culture you are part of. Violence is pretty normal in the Balkans. Theft, corruption and crime is a normal part of Italian society, but are frowned upon the further you get to the north-west of Europe. All of these are white people.

Even within a single culture, what is acceptable is diverse and often based on socio economic circumstances. Selling drugs suddenly starts to make a lot of sense when you are faced with the threat of being evicted from your home.

@dodge-gnome:
Your 50 Cent/G Unit example is flawed. Black kids don't follow 50 Cent's example. In fact, it is the other way round. Gangsta rap reflects what goes on in certain neighborhoods. Funny enough, it's middle class white kids that try to be like them and glorify the whole street thing and start acting and talking all gangsta (many paintballers being a sad example of this).
 

Robbo

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I would argue that that kind of process takes thousands of years to happen- as a race we're still coming to terms with the change from hunter-gathering to farming so you're not going to see it happening over night in a population.

All Australians criminals?
Where is the evidence to suggest these social processes take thousands of years ST?
There's none that I know of mate .. but we can all see certain fundamental cultural changes being made in decades rather than millennia ... just look at the effect of gangsta rap if you need any convincing of cultural changes being made over the sort of time-frames I am suggesting ...

I think the time-frame you are suggesting is more likely to apply Darwinist changes than anything relating to what I am discussing here, one is evolutionary and the other is socio-cultural.
 

Buddha 3

Hamfist McPunchalot
I agree. Cultural changes can even happen overnight. Look at what 9/11 did to the US, that was a major cultural change. World War 2 brought about the greatest cultural shift in Europe ever, that only took a few years. What we see happening now in Tunesia, Egypt and many other Arab contries are significant, cultural changes taking place in a matter of days.
 

Robbo

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Not really. Race and culture are vastly different things. Every race covers a myriad of cultures, some of which would be considered "criminal" to our western European standards, some of which wouldn't.
The Caucasian people cover all sorts of cultures, ranging from English binge drinkers, through pikeys, to the hardcore ethnic cleansers of the Balkans and the Caucasus. Many of these don't even look alike, yet are part of the same race.
Black people come in all shapes and sizes too. The nomadic tribes of the Sahara, the black Arabs of the Horn of Africa, the Masai and Zulu just to name a few. All of these wildly different in culture, some of them violent, some of them not so.
Asians? A race could hardly be more physically and culturally diverse than the Asians.

Within these races, the levels of "accepted" criminality and violent behavior is determined by what culture you are part of. Violence is pretty normal in the Balkans. Theft, corruption and crime is a normal part of Italian society, but are frowned upon the further you get to the north-west of Europe. All of these are white people.

Even within a single culture, what is acceptable is diverse and often based on socio economic circumstances. Selling drugs suddenly starts to make a lot of sense when you are faced with the threat of being evicted from your home.

@dodge-gnome:
Your 50 Cent/G Unit example is flawed. Black kids don't follow 50 Cent's example. In fact, it is the other way round. Gangsta rap reflects what goes on in certain neighborhoods. Funny enough, it's middle class white kids that try to be like them and glorify the whole street thing and start acting and talking all gangsta (many paintballers being a sad example of this).
Now ya see, that's why I like getting into a discussion with you Jay, it means I am gonna have to strain every cell in my bonce to answer you .... :eek:

Hmmm, onward ....the notion of multi-culturalism relating to one race is obviously a sound one but the fact this is the case does not preclude a race adopting a cultural trait even though another sector of that same race may not adopt the same behaviour elsewhere.


The problem arises in the sort of situation I suggested whereby , all races within a certain environment are open to all the same influences and yet one race adopts a particular behaviour.

It doesn't matter if that race adopts other behaviours [or maybe even refuses that same behaviour] outside of the environment I described, what matters is, it elects to adopt that behaviour within the mix of the races in that environment.

And so, my question still stands mate, whist culture doesn't necessarily equate to race, it could well indicate a racial predisposition much like pathologies do in some races.

When you talk about levels of acceptance being dependent upon which culture you might or might not be part of, you begin to lose sight [in my opinion] of what's important here, you have already conceded culturalism is sometimes on a very short time-line and as such, is fickle relatively speaking; the law of the land cannot afford such fragility and has to stand well above culturalism here.

The law is necessarily based upon on an extended time-line and rightly so .. it has to be, to perform the role it does within societies.

I suppose I'm not one for believing cultural subjectivism is a get-out clause for ultimate responsibility of one's behaviours?

Also, the law of the land, which is of course hopefully a reflection of one's moral system has to be independent of everybody's culture but I can appreciate why you suggest there is a case to answer maybes.

This is a convoluted subject for sure but I'm also sure, the more we try to remain within the confines of my hypothetical situation I described in that first post, the clearer we can keep things and hence any conclusions.

Duuurrrr, my brian hurts :(






And yes, I do know ....
 

Robbo

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I suggest considering Claude Levi-Strauss' work on structural anthropology.
ST, that all sounds very grand mate but I'm afraid if that book is suggesting cultural changes take millennia to form and this is the only time frame available for said cultural changes, then it's wrong mate ... as I have suggested, and also Jay [Buddha], we gave you two examples of cultural change that were formed on a much shorter time span thus revoking any notion of long scale necessity.

I suggest you buy another book mate ..
 

Rat

eating brick!
Sep 18, 2005
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Not at all, plus in the next generation of La La Landers, the offspring of Race x will be of the same characteristics as it's what they know, what they're taught etc etc.

I watched a bit of it too and while that twit who organised the Appleby horse thing was standing arguing with the pub owner about being "law abiding" another young fella in the back ground (also a gypsy) just snorted and muttered "law abiding" then walked off laughing.
did you also get the impression that the landlord was saying how well they behaved under duress??

specially when he had to explain the chicken wire on the windows.
 

Super Tit

It's a crab
Nov 17, 2004
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ST, that all sounds very grand mate but I'm afraid if that book is suggesting cultural changes take millennia to form and this is the only time frame available for said cultural changes, then it's wrong mate ... as I have suggested, and also Jay [Buddha], we gave you two examples of cultural change that were formed on a much shorter time span thus revoking any notion of long scale necessity.

I suggest you buy another book mate ..
Oh no, far from it. I just think it might pose some interesting questions to you and hopefully provide a few answers.

:)
 

Robbo

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Oh no, far from it. I just think it might pose some interesting questions to you and hopefully provide a few answers.

:)
Cool, then I have a mission for you [should you care to accept it] read that book from cover to cover and then come back on here and hopefully that book will provoke some very real questions which we can discuss on here afterwards.

This post will self-destruct in 5 seconds .......
 

Canon Fodder

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Oct 28, 2008
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I'm not going to get in to any humanity based arguements but if a race in a population commits a larger percentage of crimes per capita then it is not racist to suggest that a member of that race is more likely to commit a crime, its just statistically more likely that they will. Like Buddha said causal.

It's fairly obvious that it is more nurture than nature though, in the case of gypsies they are brought up to beleive that the law of the land don't apply to them, which is odd since most make out they are devote catholics and Romans 13: 1-7 states that they should.

So it's okay Robbo, you're not a racist, it's sensible to assume that when the gypsies are in town there will be more crime.

PS - I know my spelling can make my my posts appear a bit thick, can't download the spell checker onto works computer.