Potenially answered my own question with the size of France statistic, however is that the only reason?
What will TonTon do?
- Thread starter Richiemonk
- Start date
@shoaibaktar I'm not sure what you mean when you say we chose not to use the talent base? If anything Nexus is creating a large part of the talent base as there are a lot of players in other good UK teams who have been involved with the Nexus squad over the past few years.
I agree its been a good year for the UK teams you mentioned, but remember I have not said we have no talent, I said we have no depth. Think about it: all those promoted teams are going to want to strengthen their squads next season, but where do they pick up new players from that will add something to their squads - all the teams above them are trying to do the same? With a larger team base there are players there to move around and develop better teams (good players on teams who had a bad season etc), which in turn forces the teams who lose out to go and find new players and new ways to be better - its a natural ebb & flow that happens among those French teams which keeps pushing the bar higher. That cant happen among the UK contingent right now without one or two teams folding to free up players into the market. There is a similar thing happening in Germany also, however their structure is very self-centric as not many German teams play the Millennium, yet they boast 250-300 teams nationally.
@pablo666 I think its more to do with having the time to:
A - watch enough games to see someone do something noteworthy
B - watch that person another 5-10 times to see if it was a fluke
You have to consider also that in the lower divisions you can get away with a lot more. So a player who manages to go shoot 3 dudes in a point, but makes a whole load of mistakes along the way that they should have been punished for, but got away with, can look significantly better than they probably are.
I'm not saying we don't already do this though, but that it has to be put in context of the environment you are viewing people in and the time you have available to dedicate to it.
You also have to consider that from Nexus perspective, we are less likely to pick up players from outside the Elite division unless we see a real diamond in the rough. We are always going to be looking more at players on established (Millennium) divisional teams who look ready to step up another level.
I have no doubt if you took the time to pick 7 players from outside the Elite division you could compile a team that would be competent and able, probably competitive too - but that is the minimum you want from an Elite team. By no means would they be instant contenders for winning the events.
As for the France/UK/Millennium thing, yes they are a bigger country with a larger population, but their depth lies in the national structure - they have regional feeder series that feed into the main national league. You have to earn your way up through the divisions, which develops teams and players alike. This year the CPPS division was invitation only, which is where Ainsley and the guys had to start out, but essentially if a team made a good enough case for themselves they could have got in to the Elite division; as we saw all year it was not the same 10 teams at each leg. Hopefully starting next season we will start to see a bit more structure in a sense of promotion/relegation at the top end and you will see a few young upstart teams trying to earn their way in and that is what I would like to see.
I agree its been a good year for the UK teams you mentioned, but remember I have not said we have no talent, I said we have no depth. Think about it: all those promoted teams are going to want to strengthen their squads next season, but where do they pick up new players from that will add something to their squads - all the teams above them are trying to do the same? With a larger team base there are players there to move around and develop better teams (good players on teams who had a bad season etc), which in turn forces the teams who lose out to go and find new players and new ways to be better - its a natural ebb & flow that happens among those French teams which keeps pushing the bar higher. That cant happen among the UK contingent right now without one or two teams folding to free up players into the market. There is a similar thing happening in Germany also, however their structure is very self-centric as not many German teams play the Millennium, yet they boast 250-300 teams nationally.
@pablo666 I think its more to do with having the time to:
A - watch enough games to see someone do something noteworthy
B - watch that person another 5-10 times to see if it was a fluke
You have to consider also that in the lower divisions you can get away with a lot more. So a player who manages to go shoot 3 dudes in a point, but makes a whole load of mistakes along the way that they should have been punished for, but got away with, can look significantly better than they probably are.
I'm not saying we don't already do this though, but that it has to be put in context of the environment you are viewing people in and the time you have available to dedicate to it.
You also have to consider that from Nexus perspective, we are less likely to pick up players from outside the Elite division unless we see a real diamond in the rough. We are always going to be looking more at players on established (Millennium) divisional teams who look ready to step up another level.
I have no doubt if you took the time to pick 7 players from outside the Elite division you could compile a team that would be competent and able, probably competitive too - but that is the minimum you want from an Elite team. By no means would they be instant contenders for winning the events.
As for the France/UK/Millennium thing, yes they are a bigger country with a larger population, but their depth lies in the national structure - they have regional feeder series that feed into the main national league. You have to earn your way up through the divisions, which develops teams and players alike. This year the CPPS division was invitation only, which is where Ainsley and the guys had to start out, but essentially if a team made a good enough case for themselves they could have got in to the Elite division; as we saw all year it was not the same 10 teams at each leg. Hopefully starting next season we will start to see a bit more structure in a sense of promotion/relegation at the top end and you will see a few young upstart teams trying to earn their way in and that is what I would like to see.
This is an interesting thread to read.
Im not going to say much about the UK teams as i feel it would be unfair......however i think it has been an amazing year for UK paintball with all the promotions and we should embrace it. Change takes time, you wont see UK teams taking the step to pro over night.
To be the best take time and dedication, and that doesn't come easy.
Im not going to say much about the UK teams as i feel it would be unfair......however i think it has been an amazing year for UK paintball with all the promotions and we should embrace it. Change takes time, you wont see UK teams taking the step to pro over night.
To be the best take time and dedication, and that doesn't come easy.
I totally agree, but it's good to see a step in the right direction and I'd like to see next year be another step too. If we suddenly balloon out to the numbers I suggested it will fall apart as quickly as it came together, just as it did around 2007/08.
Again i agree Ash, If the UK carry's on the ways its going right now i believe we could see some positive changes for UK paintball
I havent been playing for as long as you but even in the 5/ 6 years i have i have noticed a vast improvement. However i would like to see more interaction from the main companies. It would be nice to see them holding Pro schools like you see all the time in the USA. Me personally i would love to have a weekend clinc at Bwood with the likes of Icon and TonTons
If you look at my post Ash,you will see Im replying to Impulse Raider,s comment(quoted) .But cutting all your drafts and returning to the previous squad is not a ringing endorsement of the talent you chose. Tigers are the only team at the top of the game who have developed players in a "club" structure bringing through talent on a near conveyor belt style over the last decade at least.Including a certain Mr Chaplen I believe. Put simply all our teams are seperate ,competing entities off as well as on field. It is the cohesive focus of a Federation we seem to crave to overcome this and put together the coaching ,refereeing, infrastructure ,that is supplied by other sports governing bodies ie FA ,ECB,RFU. Partly since the sport of paintball is the10% ,sitting on the90%recreational,explains why this has,nt/probaly wont happened.The sport wasted the Golden years ,when the player/team base was large enough to establish something and the industry just pocketed rather than invest for the long term. The CPPS has been a major boon in exposing that small base to a high level of competition,but the financial and logistical difficulties remain.and progression in depth is at the moment and for the forseeable future ,as good as it,s going to get
You were indeed replying to Impulse Raider, but your statement was still that Nexus chose not to use the talent base available. So I am still unsure what that statement meant?
While I don't particularly enjoy the fact we cut our drafts from 2012, the fact is those players weren't good enough at the time. I spoke to each of them at length about the reasons behind it and even pointed out that I myself was once cut from Nexus (end of 2007) and that I used this as motivation to go away and improve myself to get back on the squad. I played the 2008 season with ECI in D1 where we won the London Millennium event, and then in 2009 with Tigers where we had a very strong season, with a podium finish in Paris, before being asked to rejoin Nexus for the 2009 World Cup and have been there ever since. So yes, I have played for Tigers and I am thankful to their organisation for the time I spent on the squad and the help they gave me. But to suggest they are 'the only conveyor belt of player production' in the UK is quite a bold statement when you look at the roster from this season:
Kyle Milton: previous pro experience with Nexus and Shockwave
Sam Keats: previous pro experience with Shockwave, Banzai, UK Xball squad (pre-curser to Nexus)
Colby Keats: previous pro experience with Shockwave, Banzai, UK Xball squad (pre-curser to Nexus)
Tony Brandon: previous pro experience with Nexus
Liam Holmes: previous pro experience with Nexus
Wade Osbourne: previous pro experience with Shockwave
This is not me knocking Tigers, I am one the first to congratulate them on a great season, and yes they have developed some good players along the way too - notably Rich Payne who has had a standout season amongst a very talented roster. And if you dig further back guys like Matt Jarvis and Matt Donnegan who both came up within the Tigers ranks to play in the NPPL pro division in its heyday. What Tigers have in their favour is their longevity - you exist for as long as that team has at the upper ends, ofcourse you will develop players. Equally Nexus has also developed players in the last 10 years - Tommy Pemberton, Jason Wheeler, Jamie Abbott, Junior Brown and more recently guys like Shaun Hasell and George Bruton - who are both massively under rated, just to name but a few.
A federation would give a guidance and structure which would add to growth of quality and depth I agree, and this is also something that the French and Germans have over us too. But competition is what drives quality and success, the federation is more just a steering mechanism to keep all of that pointed in the right direction.
You are absolutely right ,more "could "be done .Having now spent 4 years involved in paintball ,from bottom to the top,but coming out of 9years of managing in county league and below in football on the back of playing ,running cricket teams ,it is very easy ,but a cheap shot to make a judgement based on relative comparisons.The reality is all the elite teams and level below spend all their time and hard earned money on just staying where they are.Further down asking a team playing R2 to double their paint bill,is always answered by a do you want it bad enough ?,without addressing the sheer affordability of paint,never mind a scouting network. At U16 level ,we would scout from the semi final stages on .At the start of 11 a side junior teams trained all summer for the transition.Why?,because parental support on top of sport structures and a vast well of players to dip in.Looking at other sports for best practice tips something all sports try,only makes you realise that within the constrictions of this sport ,teams are doing well to progress at all.As Ash states the player ceiling is a large bar to development of the top since the base is so narrow.At the CPPS I regularly jump onto other teams pits to help turn round paint /collection ,refill just to get a team back out after 2 points has exhausted their reserves and the panic all you know about as you try to sort tactics and get back out there.The lack of pit crews /pot runners is only a symptom of the lack of "4th generation " involvement in this sport. Lack of a youth section also loses the ex player and junior sports biggest sponsor Bank of Dad. For the middle to grow you need a start and finish .As a sporting model ,paintball is far closer to pro cycling where teams fade and fold when the sponsorship stops
now have been reading this thread with interest,had an idea but don`t know wether it would work.
if in conjunction with the CPPS and UKPSF we could have a super pro clinic at 1 maybe 2 events,too fund it ,teams at each event would get charged a nominal fee too qualify too attend.
my thought is say £2 per player per event ,which could then be used for paying costs of putting on clinic,the upside too this would be upping the standard of play throughout all divs.
also for the elite teams this would give them the chance too see players and keep an eye on their progress at the same time,would something like that work
if in conjunction with the CPPS and UKPSF we could have a super pro clinic at 1 maybe 2 events,too fund it ,teams at each event would get charged a nominal fee too qualify too attend.
my thought is say £2 per player per event ,which could then be used for paying costs of putting on clinic,the upside too this would be upping the standard of play throughout all divs.
also for the elite teams this would give them the chance too see players and keep an eye on their progress at the same time,would something like that work
My thoughts on this are it does have potential, but just to clarify what do you mean by super pro clinic? Also, if any team is allowed to qualify, surely it will be pointless as the player numbers will far outway the pros as it is? Also, several clinics are run throughout the year, for example Tigers have had theirs recently, how would it improve on these type of clinics where the player to pro ratio is very good from what feedback I read and heard, in order to make it a "super pro clinic"? I attended a clinic with Nicky T back in the day and that was effectively 2/3 of the day doing skills 1on1, with the rest sat on the grass doing nothing and 1/3 of the day playing games against each other to put these new "skills" into practice. Now two things really came out of that for me, 1. I don't want to sit down for two hours, do nothing and pay for it, and 2. There is no point playing games when the level difference in players is so large, ranging from beginners to long term players, because those who have played longer will learn nothing from shooting someone with their elbow in no-mans land. (Not bashing the clinic here, just personal experience, your opinion may differ
)How would teams looking to build rosters get much of an idea of gameplay when you have this problem? And how would you ensure value for money? Just throwing a few things out there that might be of concern, but nice idea.