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UK Paintball Pt 2

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
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After reading the majority of the posts that were in response to my initial post commenting upon the dire state of UK Paintball, I gotta say, I feel slightly more optimistic (which is ironic) about what lies ahead. … only slightly mind you.
The reason for this optimism is because I honestly believed I was gonna come in for some real heavy flak for suggesting we as paintballers (the majority) were just not the right sort of person (or mindset) to allow ambition and aspiration to flourish in our tournament scene.
Coz let’s face it, who the hell likes somebody telling them they ain’t got what it takes, I certainly wouldn’t even if it was the truth ..and as we all have to acknowledge now, it is undoubtedly the truth.
It’s hard to deny facts, however patriotic or however much we harbour a misplaced pride in our performances and abilities but our showings in the Millennium exposed for us all to see, the downward spiral we had allowed to take grip…in the end, there was no argument, we had to face up to it.
As for answers?
Well, if I didn’t have any, I wouldn’t have started the thread, it would have been a pointless exercise on my part just to open up a can of worms like that and attract what I believed would end up in a hate fest directed against me for daring to criticize our tournament team base.

As soon as I realized what the real problem was, in that we had a displaced recball market residing in our tournament scene, it immediately told me the nature of the real problem and that as I said, was one of the wrong demographic, in other words, the type of person we have playing in our tournaments.
In essence, because we have no real recball (walk-on) scene over here, it displaces those people who would normally want to play rec over to tournament ball because this is the only place they can play ball and not have to play rental prices.

Once we accept this displacement it helps us understand why we do not generate teams of sufficient quality because tournament teams should be made up of players who are competitive and aspire to improve etc but as we now know this is not the case.
Occasional players, guys who just enjoy playing and do not posses that truly competitive edge end up playing in our tourney circuit for the reasons already mentioned.
If we are trying to emulate other countries in producing quality teams then we are trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.. it ain’t happening dude, leastwise not from our tourney scene demographic.
We in no way can criticize the guys who do make up our tourney scene because they are playing to enjoy the game and at that level they are hugely successful in achieving what they want and just because some of us want to improve paintball in qualitative terms doesn’t make me or anybody else ‘right’, leastwise to criticize them.
It’s just we have differing criteria for playing, that’s all.
Good luck to the majority of players over here is what I say because these guys can satisfy their needs for playing paintball just by picking up their gear bags and turning out, for other more driven people, it’s a lot harder but in my opinion, a lot more rewarding.
That’s another story though.
To put this situation right we have to do the following ;-

a) Identify and acknowledge our problem (which thankfully we have done now).

b) We need to showcase tournament paintball to rentals.

c) We need to increase the number of walk on venues.

We need to expose the flashy side of tourney ball to the young and there is no better way of doing this than to have some of those vids or dvd’s or whatever playing on some sort of monitor down the local site.
As I remarked in another post, you put that side of our sport in front of a bunch of young guys then their jaws drop.
This ain’t no bull****, I have seen it so many times, I have seen rental guys lined up watching my Nexus guys train against Shockwave or Jags. They look on in awe at the diving, bunkering, markers and so on and so on…….at a base level this game as played in ‘pro tournament’ style is hugely attractive to them and we are just not tapping into this potential resource.

The site owner will no more invest in this type of marketing than he will serve up salmon pate for his customers and that’s because for the most part, our site owners live in the frikkin dark ages, they think they are being entrepreneurial geniuses if they offer two types of crisps and a chilli dip on their sites.

We need to bring in real businessmen, or educate the ones we have tho I fear the latter is a lost cause with what I know about the caliber of people we have over here running our sites.
And just as I used the Millennium league ranking to highlight our true plight when it comes to the relative quality of our teams I will ask you to ponder this :- go back ten years in your head (well those who can), and think what the average paintball site looked like when you arrived there…think about it…..and now think about what it’s like when you turn up on site now……still thinking ?
Ramshackle lean-to’s masquerading as staging areas, do I really need to go on ?
Things haven’t changed in ten frikkin years and look at how much the tourney scene has changed in terms of developing our sport. Our site owners (the ones who really make the money) have invested Jack sh!t in relative terms.
The tournament scene has evolved into a new, more modern breed of animal that is commensurate with what’s really going on and yet sites……hmmmmm…it truly is a joke and completely indefensible leastwise when you think about the 600 to 700 % mark up’s on their base line product (paint).
It’s a joke, it really is a joke.
What all this tells me is, there is no ethos of investment going on here, the only consideration is the short term making of money, exactly the same philosophy Del Boy lives by when he fills his grubby little suitcase to go down Peckham market stuffed full of second rate products.
Our sites are for the most part, a grubby little outfit when it comes to catering for our customer base and investing in its future.
We need to develop differing income streams and as I have said before, you can either increase income by increasing the existing market or you can diversify and offer a more extended choice and this is exactly what I am saying now.
Site owners should recognize that in investing in showcasing tourney ball, we are developing another income stream that can be hugely profitable if managed correctly.

We have a core customer base of rental in the hundreds of thousands, the conversion of these into rec and tourney players is always gonna be an emergent property of the access these people have to seeing other options of play, if these people don’t get a chance to see tourney or rec, then they ain’t gonna know what’s available, this is a no-brainer guys.

If we increase people’s (rental players) awareness then we increase the conversion factor, this is marketing 101 but the next question has to be, why ain’t the site owners doing it because make no bones about it, they ain’t (in any general sense).

If we do not in some way seek to convert more rentals into rec and tourney players by a process of education then nothing will change, as for any site owners developing a social conscience with regard to paintball as a whole, forget it, they are interested in one thing only and that is making money.

We need to educate them in how best to develop their base line player, and instead of that self same player turning up once every six months to play rental, we need to generate in that player, the desire to play paintball at a more serious level and convert him or her into a serious baller instead of an occasional one.

We do this and we convert a once every six month rental player into a once a month walk-on player and if we do the maths on this, it doesn’t take much to work out that developing these type income streams can make money…real money.
The net effect will be this (if any of this is done) will be an immediate contraction in the tourney player numbers because as sites open up walk-on options these will be exploited by the very tourney player who I am suggesting has been displaced.
This downsizes our tournament scene to a leaner and meaner animal and thus creating a more competitive environment because those who are left will more resemble the demographic we need to start producing better teams and players.
There will then be a period whereby rental players will be going thru an awareness program (hopefully effected by the site owners) and this will then start to swell both the ranks of the recball scene and ultimately funnel thru the competitive player we so need to the tourney circuit.

And there we have it, not rocket science, now here near and yet…and yet I know the knee jerk reaction of the general site owner is gonna be ‘Robbo, you don’t know what you are talking about’…….blah , blah blah.
My answer is simple; I do know what I am talking about so STFU and get on with developing our sport instead of bitching on here just coz you don’t like seeing what we all know to be the truth of the matter.
People like Dale Jeyes from the Jags has got some idea with his new site where he is concentrating on developing new talent and opening up training opportunities and I am sure there are other sites dotted about here and there who have similar outlooks but I’m afraid it’s not enough, nowhere near, we need more people like Dale and Co.
 

Sid_Clan

What's the point!!!
Sep 13, 2005
401
0
0
God's Country
www.a1paintball.org
Robbo,

Don't tar all site owners with the same brush!!

I know in all honesty you probably don't even see past Carlisle when you talk about paintball, that's fair enough, Scotland probably makes up about 1% of the total tournament players in the UK and I suppose with that in mind in your eyes it is justifiable.

I have to say after reading your thread in some places I agree, some site owners are cowboys, a paintball site springs up overnight and is closed down within 6 months of making a quick buck, yup it happens. But, there is the flipside, the people out there who ARE trying to make a difference. We don't have a walk on scene so to speak of up here, there are simply not enough interested players, anyone who is interested in tournament paintball or indeed walk on/scenario usually contacts me anyway as I seem to be the guy in the know in this Country, don't ask me why.

We started our site about three years ago with one aim, try and change peoples attitudes towards paintball, up here we are fighting a battle all the time after the banning of paintball in the early 90's, so for us to come in as tournament players and start our own site with the hope of changing peoples perception of paintball has been hard. When we first opened we made sure our pricing structure was in line with most English based sites, anyone who has played in Scotland will know that some Paintball Sites charge as much as £12 per 100, this disgusts me!!!!! We use Clan photos to show customers that the people running their day are real and not some bloke from a magazine we also promote the team and the sport on our websites, flyers, site, people who come to a1paintball are introduced to a relaxed atmosphere where people have a laugh, talk about the sport and are given hints and tips when playing, almost like coaching, we also talent spot when we are running groups. We own our own Sup Air and use it once a month in Livingston, we have done PR events for charities and for the Navy, we have also been asked to play paintball in Murrayfield to show people what tournament paintball is all about.

We do not have the luxury of a 200acre paintball site, we have about 25 if that, our council dictates what we can and cannot do to the site. We do not have land adjacent to the site we can use to promote the sport with tourney style play.

As I have already said, I know for a fact you don't include my Country in your UK thinking, Uk starts at Lands End and finishes at Hardrians wall right....

Have you ever owned a paintball site Robbo and tried to run it as a business? Not having a pop just asking, I know from my point of view that after Rent, Rates, Staff, Meals, Co2, Equipment, Cleaing, Toilet Hire, paint, licences, marketing, and so on....there is not alot left mate....maybe I should increase my prices ;)

Nah, think I'lll just continue doing my part for my country, call it "misplaced pride"

Sid
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Pete, let me ask youse a question: How many sites have the facilities to offer different "brands" of paintball to their customers? What I mean is; woods fields, villages, old style speedball maybe plus Airball and/or Xball fields? It seems to me it's one thing to make a day player or a rental aware of the possibilities but another altogether to give them an opportunity to try it out.
Here in sunny Florida :) most sites offer some of everything as there are regulars who will only play woods or only play Supair but for the constant flow of rental players/ first (or second) timers all the options are made available if they are interested.
Of course, as you've noted, the site operation here is vastly different as well as on any given day the player breakdown is probably around 30% rental, 50-60% rec and 10-20% tourney and the goal of most site operators is to convert the rental player into a rec player because here in Florida the competition is fairly fierce with lots of sites so it pays to build loyal repeat customers instead of trying to squeeze the rentals.
Part of the process here is to encourage the players to mix together--initially in the staging area where you can talk, ask questions, check out the fancy gear, etc. But beyond that anyone out playing is allowed, if they choose, to play with whatever group they want to so you get some adventurous rentals playing with the rec players and you get some rec players having a go with the tourney kids and this encourages the kind of player who is most likely to end up in tourney play an outlet for their natural competitiveness. And far from discouraging these players it tends to motivate them to try harder, buy the gear they need to compete and so on.
 

JoseDominguez

New cut and carved spine!
Oct 25, 2002
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I used to enjoy playing, then I realised I wasn't 'furthering the sport' enough. So I'm not going to bother any more. Paintball is the only thing I do that has everyone going on about 'advancing the sport etc......' and strangely enough is also the only thing I do that doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
As soon as anyone tries something different they get jumped on, as soon as toes are stepped on same thing. We are trying to play a sport that only has two levels at the moment...... stag weekend knockabout and full tourney.
Now that's structure. And what does it take to advance from 'fun' to serious competition?
About £600 worth of kit and your own transport. Other than that as long as you have at least one opposable thumb you're in.
There's no structure to UK ball. No ladder to climb. Until that's in place it will continue as a scattered mess of independent tourneys. As long as tourneys are being run for profit by small groups of individuals, nothing is going to improve. (I acknowledge that most sports are run for profit, but these are run by larger organisations with a 'longer view' on long term profit through development).
I find it hard to take the UK scene as seriously as some, and funnily, even though I don't take it seriously, I bet my money would be just as welcome as anyone elses at pretty much any competition.
We are going to run the first of our rental tourneys next year.... same price structure as a normal tourney, paint at less than an average walk on or BYO, kit rental included and a cash prize at the end (currently £300 for every ten teams that take part). We are going to try it regularly and stick to 'rental kit' in the hope of getting lots of new blood. Ultimately we are hopping to get a real 'entry level' scene going. Other than that, I think next year is going to be more complaining and very little action yet again.
Any other sites out there interested? Maybe get a series of these things going..................



was that a tumbleweed?
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,116
2,157
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London
www.p8ntballer.com
Originally posted by Sid_Clan
Robbo,
Don't tar all site owners with the same brush...............
Sid
Sid I haven't mate, you will see if you read my posts on this subject I choose my words very carefully, I tend to use the word 'generally' and 'most' quite a lot and I think in using words like this, it gets me off the hook when anybody accuses me of 'tarring all with the same brush'.
I can 100% see where you are coming from Sid, but not all are like you and by the way, yes, I have owned a site that I inherited on the settling of a debt one time and I gave it up not because it couldn't make money (it still does now) but because I didn't wanna deal with Joe Public.
Sid, we both know if you run a site properly and you have the numbers you can earn an awful lot of money, I don't have to reel off evidence of this because I ain't gonna embarrass some people I know but we both know this to be true mate.


Baca my third piece of advice in that original post recommended :-
'We need to increase the number of walk on venues
and this is entirely in line with the point you are making because these site owners who I am asking to promote all levels of our sport have at the same time to give these people the oportunity to play what they have seen.
It's of little use to individuial site owners in developing a need and then not being able to deliver the opportunity.

It necessarily has to be a dual exercise of both promotion and facility expansion.

And Paul, the irony over here is, these site owners who read this thread will spend more time trying to defend themselves and malign me rather than looking at the American model of operation (with a PROVEN track record) and using that as some sort of business blueprint for the future.
 

Markie C

Carlos Spicy Weiner
Aug 1, 2004
3,327
121
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Northern Quarter
www.northernquarterpb.com
All your points pete are spot on but you didn't answer my point's that i raised.

That i do not own a rec ball site all we run is a supair site we bring new people into tourney ball all the time i say we have brought about 4 new teams together but how can we keep doing this when when we ask for better deals on paint or what have you all we get is a big fat no because we cant sell enough for them.

Dont get me wrong i know paint surplyer's need to make there budget's but with no help from the industry what chance have we got and when i did bring this point up all i got was do you think they want to bring people out of the woods?
 

JoseDominguez

New cut and carved spine!
Oct 25, 2002
3,185
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Your right Robbo, all this will get is lots of flak. No point actually trying to fix anything if you can just have a go at the person who pointed out the flaws. It's the British way. No need to be the best, just so long as someone else is looking worse :)
 

Sid_Clan

What's the point!!!
Sep 13, 2005
401
0
0
God's Country
www.a1paintball.org
Originally posted by Robbo
Sid I haven't mate, you will see if you read my posts on this subject I choose my words very carefully, I tend to use the word 'generally' and 'most' quite a lot and I think in using words like this, it gets me off the hook when anybody accuses me of 'tarring all with the same brush'.
I can 100% see where you are coming from Sid, but not all are like you and by the way, yes, I have owned a site that I inherited on the settling of a debt one time and I gave it up not because it couldn't make money (it still does now) but because I didn't wanna deal with Joe Public.
Sid, we both know if you run a site properly and you have the numbers you can earn an awful lot of money, I don't have to reel off evidence of this because I ain't gonna embarrass some people I know but we both know this to be true mate.


Mate I agree there is money to be made, we started the business from nothing, worked our backsides off and we are here now, yes there is money to be made, what you do with it is another question, where we are more than happy purchasing a Sup' Air, helping the Clan, improving the equipment on our site, others are happy to make the cash, bank it, then blow it on whatever, usually nothing to do with paintball.

I hope people listen to you mate, and Edinburgh Council give us a massive bit of land to do what we want with ;)
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,116
2,157
448
London
www.p8ntballer.com
Originally posted by markie c
All your points pete are spot on but you didn't answer my point's that i raised.

That i do not own a rec ball site all we run is a supair site we bring new people into tourney ball all the time i say we have brought about 4 new teams together but how can we keep doing this when when we ask for better deals on paint or what have you all we get is a big fat no because we cant sell enough for them.

Dont get me wrong i know paint surplyer's need to make there budget's but with no help from the industry what chance have we got and when i did bring this point up all i got was do you think they want to bring people out of the woods?

Markie, the market place at the moment in terms of buying paint is a dream if you want to purchase paint.
If teams are getting it at prices nudging site owner's prices (which some of them are) then I am sure you can get if for a similar cost.
I have no idea who you have approached but ring around a few more people and you will be able to get paint very cheap indeed.

The paint suppliers don't give a monkey's where the paint is used, your pound note is as good as any woodland site owner's pound note so I think your problem is not becasue you ain't getting any help as you suggest but for other reasons mate.

Jose Ya know what, I relish the idea that some of these cowboys I mention come on here trying to refute any of what I say because ya know what, I got something they ain't...the truth !
Any rhetoric they may spout will just be knee-jerk bullsh!t designed not to get nearer the truth but to deflect criticism away from themselves.