Triggerbounce scandal at CC finals amB!

[Patrik/Evolution]

Fact:

The mysterious TB marker had been fired as it is for over 60K cycles before Hypnotize played with it in CC.

I had played all the games at CC with it until we dropped from the finals. Directly from where I gave the marker in question to Hypnotize.

No changes were made and no screws etc were getting loose.

The TB marker in question had been tested on 6 different fields, on 4 of these 3 or more refs tested it (or just wanted to play with it?).NO TB?????????????????

NOW

ON the SPLATCH field in the FINALS decicive match (FOR CC positions and THE MILLENIUM SERIES 2003 for Hypnotize).

BOOOM

ITS GOT TB. ALL OF A SUDDEN EVERYBODYS FINDING A BOUNCE (after the game).

The rules should be fare for everybody. AND JUST--> as compared to the given circumstances.

TO AVOID THIS IN THE FUTURE

Before the game the markers should be checked. IF TB is found the player can changte it so that the marker does not bounce. Basicly as an added proceadure in the crono pahse, i.e. like turning down the fps on a marker before the game.
(I see that hot guns are much more dangerous than guns that shoot 18BPS with bounce instead of 16BPS with out bounce.)

After the game markers can be checked if they have been modified or if bounce is found --> eliminated palyer or minus ( - )points.

NOT ****ING
giving the points to the losing team. I do not assume that the TB game on the splatch field in question was dictated by the extra rate of fire that "apparently" was available due to TB on this one marker.

MILLENIUM MARSHALLING SYSTEM IS AMBIGUOUS AT BEST

IT SI UNFAIR TO ALL PLAYERS

IT FAVOURS PEOPLE WITH POWER & INFLUENCE IN THE INDUSTRY; MILLENNIUM SERIES etc.

SO

The big question here is HOW the rules and proceadures should be clarified so that incidents like this would not accur agian.

HERE IS FREE ADVICE FOR THE MILLENIUM OWNERS or to whom it may concern:

IF YOU REALLY WANT THE MILLENIUM SERIES TO GROW AND BECOME A LUCRATIVE BUSINESS IN ANY FORM. MAKE THE ORGANISATION SO GOOD THAT YOU CAN GET BETTING ENTITIES INTERESTED I.E. The fundamentals of the series should be in such good shape that there is at least the perseption of fareness.
If that would be used as a benchmark to which the series should be run and developed to, things would change.
Players will be happy, and no one would complain about players cards cost etc.

NOTE:
Yes it costs and you need peple to think and time is required. But no one is going to give a **** about the millenium or any other paintball sereis if it can be dictated by simple subjective marshalling decision.


In Hypnotizes case in one game out of 60-90 one marhsal (potenitally) changed the over all millenium standings, due to his opinion AFTER THE GAME???

Great sport. (learn something from the developments in Super seven, or the Marshalling system in NXL)

Ok went beyond the point but the cause is the underlaying holistic problems in the MILLENIUM.

 

[sjt19]

Originally posted by Patrik/Evolution


-->The rules should be fare for everybody

-->MILLENIUM MARSHALLING SYSTEM IS AMBIGUOUS AT BEST
IT SI UNFAIR TO ALL PLAYERS
IT FAVOURS PEOPLE WITH POWER & INFLUENCE IN THE INDUSTRY; MILLENNIUM SERIES etc.

-->The big question here is HOW the rules and proceadures should be clarified so that incidents like this would not accur agian.

-->Niall could by more Porch cars and be truthfull about millenium series profits, while all the players remain content)

-->no one is going to give a **** about the millenium or any other paintball sereis if it can be dictated by simple subjective marshalling decision.

-->Great sport. (learn something from the developments in Super seven, or the Marshalling system in NXL)

I had a long reply, but it got erased, i take great offence to what you have written!

Why would the judges not have been fair? We (THE THREE REFFING CREWS ON FIELD) had nothing to gain from Hypnotize not winning, and i couldnt have cared less who won any game in the whole event...i was fair, and so were all the other judges on field for the whole event, no matter what the team. Be it Dynasty or Zone, everyone was treated the same.

You wana be careful what you suggest about Niall, as you have stated suggestively that he and the board are being less than honest as to the whereabouts of the profits of the MS. Why is that any of your business anyway? They can charge what they like, its their company. If you dont like it, then piss off and play in another series. Its that simple!

There was no favoritism going on from jusged to MS people. Ask Maggot, i dont think he felt favoured by us in any way, nor Alvaro, Pedro, Manfred, Steve Morris either, nobody got any help whatsoever. Every one was treated fairly.

Hmm....the NXL.....where judges are abused....threatened......slated.....bullied...and god knows what else...yeah...we can learn a lot from them.....

Why is it that the peole who have the complaints are so often people like you who either have NO PLACE BEING INVOLVED as your not even on that team , or people who have to find someone to blame for their own inadequacies?

You sir, just got owned. Fool

 

[ascutt]

Nick

First up, it wasn't the Draxxus field you are talking about but the X-Ball field where the chrono people only notified the judges if they suspected some trigger bounce prior to a game. At that point I, as head field judge, would go to the chrono, and using the tests laid down in the rules, would try the marker. If I found TB then the player was allowed time to adjust his trigger (this happened many times, however many times I could find no TB so there was no problem.). If your gun didn't arouse any suspition then I would not be called.

Secondly, when did we get to the point that payers suddenly removed any responsibility for ther own markers? How many players over that weekend used the test laid down in the rules to check their own guns? The rules are there for the players and enforced by the judges, it is not the judges responsibilty to ensure that your guns is within the rules prior to a game, it is the players, we just ensure that the rules are followed to give a safe and level playing field for all teams.

As for the level of penalty laid down within the rules regarding TB that is not really something that can be attached to this arguement over one game, its was the same for every team in every game.

Fianlly, its is not the field judges that finaly decide TB issues, the rules state that the Ultimate must be called and it is his decision that counts. We, as field judges, are only able to notify about suspected TB.

 

[Liz]

Originally posted by Patrik/Evolution
Fact:

The mysterious TB marker had been fired as it is for over 60K cycles before Hypnotize played with it in CC.

I had played all the games at CC with it until we dropped from the finals. Directly from where I gave the marker in question to Hypnotize.

No changes were made and no screws etc were getting loose.

The TB marker in question had been tested on 6 different fields, on 4 of these 3 or more refs tested it (or just wanted to play with it?).NO TB?????????????????

NOW

ON the SPLATCH field in the FINALS decicive match (FOR CC positions and THE MILLENIUM SERIES 2003 for Hypnotize).

BOOOM

ITS GOT TB. ALL OF A SUDDEN EVERYBODYS FINDING A BOUNCE (after the game).

The rules should be fare for everybody. AND JUST--> as compared to the given circumstances.


MILLENIUM MARSHALLING SYSTEM IS AMBIGUOUS AT BEST

IT SI UNFAIR TO ALL PLAYERS

IT FAVOURS PEOPLE WITH POWER & INFLUENCE IN THE INDUSTRY; MILLENNIUM SERIES etc.

The fundamentals of the series should be in such good shape that there is at least the perseption of fareness.


In Hypnotizes case in one game out of 60-90 one marhsal (potenitally) changed the over all millenium standings, due to his opinion AFTER THE GAME???

This reads to me like Patrik clearly believes that TB was found purely and simply to do Hypnotise out of a place; in other words cheating by the refs to influence the result.

I don't get involved in Millennium politics as they can be very murky at the best of times, but I genuinely believe that there is no way that politics would influence the reffing on that field. Sam came on here before the tournament laying his team's reputation as refs on the line & IMHO their performance showed that they ARE completely unbiassed and fair. I watched games on the Splatch field with teams who really don't get on with Shock Am and could see no bias or favoritism whatsoever, despite standing with supporters of the team who were watching closely for this. I know that Sam reads the rules cover to cover, otherwise he wouldn't come on here every time there's a change and ask questions about it! I should point out here that though I know Sam and most of his team, I'm not linked in any way to any part of the Shockwave teams or their sponsors.

One of the reasons Ralph was asked to be an Ultimate at CC was because he has no ties with any teams or the industry and hasn't had for quite a while now. He too has a reputation for fairness that he doesn't want to lose.

So I'll happily read comments about maybe the rules need changing or re-wording, but the general tone of this thread seems to be that Hypnotise think they were "reffed out" of the finals intentionally by this one incident, despite the final table showing that of the result had been reversed they still wouldn't have made better than 3rd rather than 4th. Looks more like sour grapes to me

 

[DMZ Hasse]

Originally posted by Liz
changing or re-wording, but the general tone of this thread seems to be that Hypnotise think they were "reffed out" of the finals intentionally by this one incident, despite the final table showing that of the result had been reversed they still wouldn't have made better than 3rd rather than 4th. Looks more like sour grapes to me

let's analyze this and sum it up, without speculating, trying to find hidden agendas and without letting heated feelings clog our perception:

1. Hypnotize are pissed off because they probably lost 1st place Am b season 2003 (they would have won the series if they had come second or better) due to a marker that according to the marshals was found to have TB. This gave them a -100 in the finals. If i am not wrong they also had to play one or more games with only 6 players. Also the -100 probably did bad things to team spirit during the finals. They also claim to have had the marker tested for TB prior to the game by 2 of the people involved in the manufacturing of the marker (Alex & Max Lundqvist)

2. Patrik is pissed off because Hypnotize got penalized while using his marker, which was used in all games in Campaign + other tournaments. It was tested for TB before almost every game. Patrik finds it strange that no marshal found the TB in any of the previous games, but that ALL marshals found it after Hypnotize's game. Patrik (and others) suggest that the same method can not have been used giving the dífference in results.

3. The people marshalling the Splatch field, and some of their friends who where not there, are pissed off because they think someone is accusing them of conspiring against Hypnotize in order for them not to win the 2003 AMb title. They also say that the marker TB:ed.

4. Nick, as well as other posters, says that there has been inconsistencies in the TB-checking method used by marshals despite the existence of a TB-checking procedure in the Millennium Rules.

5. Some of the players in Hypnotize, as well as other players posting in this thread, seem to be horsepower-geeks.


My reflections:
I would be pissed off I was a member of team Hypnotize. Feeling robbed of the title without anyone to blame for having made an obvious mistake makes it worse.

Still, this discussion makes it clear that the TB rules and testing methods need to be more clear and known by everyone.

So, I GUESS YOU WHERE ALL RIGHT. Congratulations. Could we now please rename this thread to "how can we make TB tests more exact and fair?" and move on?

Now, time to open up one of those bag-in-box cartons and forget about paintball for a while...

 

[MrCosworth -=HypnotizeSweden=-]

So I'll happily read comments about maybe the rules need changing or re-wording, but the general tone of this thread seems to be that Hypnotise think they were "reffed out" of the finals intentionally by this one incident, despite the final table showing that of the result had been reversed they still wouldn't have made better than 3rd rather than 4th. Looks more like sour grapes to me



BS.

You dont know what you are talking about. 7 guys and a undisturbed mind would made other results in the finals.. believe me or experience it next year.


Hasse Evolution.. I am the horsepower-geek... hahahaha..



Best Regards

Mikko Team Hypnotize Sweden

 

[sjt19]

Originally posted by DMZ Hasse
let's analyze this and sum it up, without speculating, trying to find hidden agendas and without letting heated feelings clog our perception:

There were/are no hidden agendas! I couldnt have cared less who won the game, all i wanted to do was a good job on the reffing front. As did all the judges on the field. Secondly, do you really think that in the few seconds when the judges realised who was on field, that allof us conspired to screw a team over, then calculated the points we would need to take away from them to do so, then convinced the THREE ultimates to follow the plan, then go through with it before the game started? GET REAL! Thats a load of crap and everyone knows it. Anyone who has ever marshalled a MS event this year will tell you that as judges we had no idea who was on the field until we checked the sheet and called them on, i never once looked a few games ahead as it didnt bother me who was on field, they were all gonna get judged equally and fairly.

Originally posted by DMZ Hasse
due to a marker that according to the marshals was found to have TB.

The ULTIMATESD decided the gun was bouncing! The judges just raised the question that it may be bouncing. WHY IS THAT SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND? I will tell you why, its because you know its easier to blame faceless judges rather than the series ultimates who actually made the decisions. The on field judges HAD NO SAY at all in whether a penalty was to be assessed or not. GET IT?

Originally posted by DMZ Hasse
but that ALL marshals found it after Hypnotize's game.

No they didnt, only 3 or so judges out of 15 or so checked the gun then called the ultimates. And it was found before game over was called, so that i believe is actually during the game.

Originally posted by DMZ Hasse
3. The people marshalling the Splatch field, and some of their friends who where not there, are pissed off because they think someone is accusing them of conspiring against Hypnotize in order for them not to win the 2003 AMb title.

Of course i am pissed off, YOU and others from Evolution and Hypnotize have stated that we screwed you over! How am i not to take that personally?

Originally posted by DMZ Hasse
4. Nick, as well as other posters, says that there has been inconsistencies in the TB-checking method used by marshals despite the existence of a TB-checking procedure in the Millennium Rules.

Who is it who decides if the gun bounces or not....its not the on field judges...its THE ULTIMATES! thats what they are there for, and thats what they do. So stop blaming marshalls and ask the Ultimates why they made their decisions.

Please stop blaming those other than yourselves though. It makes you look foolish and childish.

sam

 

[DMZ Hasse]

Originally posted by sjt19
There were/are no hidden agendas! I couldnt have cared less who won the game, all i wanted to do was a good job on the reffing front. As did all the judges on the field. Secondly, do you really think that in the few seconds when the judges realised who was on field, that allof us conspired to screw a team over, then calculated the points we would need to take away from them to do so, then convinced the THREE ultimates to follow the plan, then go through with it before the game started? GET REAL! Thats a load of crap and everyone knows it. Anyone who has ever marshalled a MS event this year will tell you that as judges we had no idea who was on the field until we checked the sheet and called them on, i never once looked a few games ahead as it didnt bother me who was on field, they were all gonna get judged equally and fairly.



The ULTIMATESD decided the gun was bouncing! The judges just raised the question that it may be bouncing. WHY IS THAT SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND? I will tell you why, its because you know its easier to blame faceless judges rather than the series ultimates who actually made the decisions. The on field judges HAD NO SAY at all in whether a penalty was to be assessed or not. GET IT?



No they didnt, only 3 or so judges out of 15 or so checked the gun then called the ultimates. And it was found before game over was called, so that i believe is actually during the game.



Of course i am pissed off, YOU and others from Evolution and Hypnotize have stated that we screwed you over! How am i not to take that personally?



Who is it who decides if the gun bounces or not....its not the on field judges...its THE ULTIMATES! thats what they are there for, and thats what they do. So stop blaming marshalls and ask the Ultimates why they made their decisions.

Please stop blaming those other than yourselves though. It makes you look foolish and childish.

sam

Sam: I am trying to be clam and polite here. Maybe you should read my post one more time. Also, a little word of advice: When reading posts that contain comments about an event that you have been present at, don't always assume that the post is about you, that it is an attack against you or that you need to clarify your flawless behaviour every time.

 

[sjt19]

You referred to the marshalls on the Splatch field.

You said you were trying to find "hidden agendas"

You said that 'ALL' the marshalls found TB, that would include me as i was on field at the time. I didnt even touch the gun.

Your post was specific in naming examples, i was on the Splatch field and you have tried to defend Hypnotize when you clearly have no idea what happened as you weren;t there. You are blaming the field judges, as are the guys from Hypnotize, which is wrong. The ultimates are the ones you should direct your fury at, but this would be a mistake as well, because in my opinion, and the opinion of the other judges and 3 season ultimates, the gun was bouncing. Its easy to come on here and dispute it at a later date, but you have no proof that what you say is true. The gun bounced, many people from different backgrounds said so, what is it that makes you so right, and them all so wrong? I will tell you what it is, its sour grapes and an inability for some people to take responsibility for their actions.

I didnt have any beef against Hypnotize, i hadnt even met any of them, neither had any of the judges on field that i know of had any contact with any of the players on field before the infraction, or since. Bar on these boards. What is clear is that for some reason you believe that the MS conspired against Hyp and made a concious effort to deny them what they felt was theirs. As liz has said, the best they could have come even without the penalty is 3rd....still not enough in your words for them to win as you said they had to come 2nd.
Please stop blaming orthers and take responsibility for your actions Hypnotize.

Polite and genial.

 

[DMZ Hasse]

Jeez. You just don't get it, do you... guess I have to post it all over again. I'll try to be more clear this time.

* LETS TRY TO SUM THIS UP AND MOVE ON.
*LET'S STOP SPECULATING
*LET'S NOT TRY TO FIND HIDDEN AGENDAS
*LET'S NOT ALLOW HEATED FEELINGS RUN THIS THREAD
*THERE IS NO APPARENT MISTAKE BY ANYONE, SO NO SÌNGLE PERSON CAN BE BLAMED FOR WHAT HAPPENED
*LETS FOCUS ON THE REAL ISSUE, HOW DO WE MAKE THE TB RULES MORE CLEAR AND FAIR
*EVERYONE SHOULD READ THE RULES
*MOST PEOPLE WHO POSTED ON THIS TREAD HAVE A POINT
*I DONT GIVE A FLYING FCUK ABOUT WHO SAID WHAT AND WHEN, THAT IS NOT THE POINT

I'll also repeat the last part of my previous posting:

Maybe you should read my post one more time. Also, a little word of advice: When reading posts that contain comments about an event that you have been present at, don't always assume that the post is about you, that it is an attack against you or that you need to clarify your flawless behaviour every time.