The Final Frontier: Game Fixing

[JoseDominguez]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Day 5 and it looks like I could have made my money on an over/under of 6. Almost makes me wonder if the reticence to discuss this topic stems from so many players having done it at one time or another in one way or another. Just wondering. Given the reams of cyberpaper used up to record everyone's outrage over stuff like playing on or wiping or the French or expensive, bad tourney food or too few porta-johns the lack of interest here is nearly astonishing. Isn't it?

wiping, playing on, game fixing etc.......... all the same to me, I only play for fun, I've no intention of ever being any different. So, easy for me to get on my high horse about it.... I don't anymore, as I've got nothing to lose really. Someone cheats against me, I may lose out on a tin cup, but so what, we got our sponsorship on our reputation, not performance, and we probably get more positive press than we would if were a hundred times better. We can afford to play the way we want to.
I can't say that I wouldn't fix/wipe/play on etc..... if my playing future depended on it. Morals are great when you can afford them
BUt cheating is rife, if you complain about it, then you'll have very little time for anything else. I don't protest, I don't whine, I stick with smug superiority
I consider gun tampering far more serious, you aren't going to hurt someone by throwing a game.

 

[Gyroscope]

Smug superiority is ok when the difference between saying something and not saying something is whether or not someone is oging to be polite in the staging area. When persuading a judge is on the line, a different tack is called for.

Oh, and the answer is "a." Most tournament players are never at the point where anything they do matters to anyone but themselves. No one would ask them to throw a game because anybody that had anything on the line could legitimately beat most teams.

I have been asked only twice. Once I was offered money, the other time it was "help a brother out." Neither seemed appealing. I cannot say for certain that a team's competitive pride has a price. Most people never have enough power to be tempted by graft, but when they are, most people not used to power instantly sell it.

 

[Beaker]

Like Gyro been asked twice to throw a game, and had it once offered for them to do the throwing.

Talking of which, if a team decides to not play against another team, for their own personal reasons, and the other teams knows nothing about it and just plays the game but wonders why it was so easy - does that count as fixing? Who should be penalised if any? There is nothing in the rules that says one team can't just go "oh f*ck it".

Case in point old Dale "throwing a paint grenade" in NPPL. That gifted the game to the other team but he did it for sh*ts and giggles. Or a 7 man run through on a final game when you can't qualify.

There are degrees of fixing, just like there are degrees of playing on.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Game fixing is illegal in any sport - because it defies the whole purpose of sports.

Naturally, there is no excuse for it in paintball either.

That teams may sometimes both individually play the scoreboard is another matter - that happens all the time in other sports as well - but as soon as they have agreed to play a certain way or on a certain result beforehand, I think it should be punished.

I believe game fixing happens a LOT in paintball - I have been offered to fix games many times - and never taken the offer.... but the number of times it has been offered to me over the years, leads me to suspect it is fairly commonplace.

Problem will always be proof - and the reason it is such a big problem, is because the penalty is so tough that refs simply shy away from making the call.

If the penalty for "suspected game fixing" was for instance being deducted the worth of 3 maxes, I think refs would be much more inclined to make the call when needed.

Nick

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Beaker
1--Talking of which, if a team decides to not play against another team, for their own personal reasons, and the other teams knows nothing about it and just plays the game but wonders why it was so easy - does that count as fixing?

2--Who should be penalised if any?

3--There is nothing in the rules that says one team can't just go "oh f*ck it".

4--Case in point old Dale "throwing a paint grenade" in NPPL. That gifted the game to the other team but he did it for sh*ts and giggles.

5--Or a 7 man run through on a final game when you can't qualify.

6--There are degrees of fixing, just like there are degrees of playing on.

1--yes.
As an aside, related to this topic in major US pro sports the leagues are even concerned about "effort". Toward the end of the season when some teams are eliminated or some teams are already assured post-season play there are always concerns expressed as to how late season games could affect other teams opportunities. For example, is it fair for a team that's "in" to rest starters for the play-offs when the team they are playing is in direct competition with another for a different play-off spot? Nobody is "fixing" a game but neither is the game the full-on competition of both sides doing their best to win.
2--good question.
3--then they should add it pdq.
4--so what? Since more teams than his own could have been affected by his action it merits a penalty as contrary to the whole purpose of a competition.
5--I've seen that done for result altering purposes before.
6--perhaps.

Nick is right. Outright game fixing may not be routine--but even that happens more often than peeps will admit--but collusion is commonplace and the round robin-type formats encourage it.

For Beaks and Gyro (or anybody else)--at what level of play did your brushes with game fixing occur?

 

[Beaker]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
1--yes.
As an aside, related to this topic in major US pro sports the leagues are even concerned about "effort". Toward the end of the season when some teams are eliminated or some teams are already assured post-season play there are always concerns expressed as to how late season games could affect other teams opportunities. For example, is it fair for a team that's "in" to rest starters for the play-offs when the team they are playing is in direct competition with another for a different play-off spot? Nobody is "fixing" a game but neither is the game the full-on competition of both sides doing their best to win.
2--good question.
3--then they should add it pdq.
4--so what? Since more teams than his own could have been affected by his action it merits a penalty as contrary to the whole purpose of a competition.
5--I've seen that done for result altering purposes before.
6--perhaps.

Nick is right. Outright game fixing may not be routine--but even that happens more often than peeps will admit--but collusion is commonplace and the round robin-type formats encourage it.

For Beaks and Gyro (or anybody else)--at what level of play did your brushes with game fixing occur?

1 - good point, and the same applies in pball where a team that's lost first 4 or 5 games can do all sorts of crazy stuff come saturday knowing they wont get through.

2 - I think someone should be, but can't see how anyone can be, you can prevent rosters being amended in football, but can't force someone away from shooting over their heads, or pulling penalites on purpose.

3 - yup

4 - I think it does, his delibarate actions affected others scores. It might be fun, unless a team went out because of it.

5 - Me too, or just people playing on to get penalties.

6 - I don't think it's a perhaps, but how you prove it is tough.

I've been asked by teams from all Divs, but weighted heavily at the top end. Most Div 2 and 3 teams don't play the scoreboard in Europe, they hardly look at it until end of Saturday.

 

[The-Baron]

Game fixing

Have personaly played my own team in events and even drew against the stronger squad losing both teams a trophy ...DOH!
But i have seen this happen since the darkest days of paintball thats why so many teams have JUNIOR teams....and sometimes a team has lost to someone who sponsers them ?...
If memory serves me Fat freddys cats and The Mufs (remember those 2) always used to loose to the Mayhem Tiger With just a single Tiger on the field (some live players even walking of to illiminate themselves or just handing their armbands to refs.
Its always happened And i'd like to see Refs beable to Penalty point Teams Or even Ban Them for Obviouse Collusion

Robbo

 

[Gyroscope]

1, 2, 3-
If there is no collusion, I see no problem. I understand that one could have enough of a relationship that it would be understood (in certain circumstances we should fall on our faces to help Team X). Still, I don't think that teams should have severe penalties for loosing the will to fight, or just suddenly turning into chumps, or whatever. These things do happen spontaneously, as we all know.

The circumstances under which we were asked to lose:
Once in a NPPL (at band camp) when we and another team were on the cusp of making Sunday, both team captains were looking at the scoreboard, and realized who they were standing next to. The other captain asked our captain for a little help, as we each had another game to play. We were asked to lose, just as a friendly gesture.

The other time was a local tournament with a 1st place takes all cash prize. The other team knew that my team was out of the running, but if they beat us with so many alive, they would take 1st. We were offered $500 to lose without shooting anybody out. 2 guys wanted to do it, but the rest were vehemently opposed.

The best way I see to eliminate these situations is to get rid of round-robin play. Double elimination takes care of game fixing by setting up a scenario where every team on the field still has the hope to go all the way to first place. In round robin you get lame ducks who only have to ability to influence who wins without a competitive incentive of their own.

 

[Janecka]

I'm surprised I haven't seen the word sponsorships (unless I missed it above). In our dirt poor sport with a mild (mild as in Grand Canyon) wealth gap, money isn't cash, its sponsorships. The bragged about amounts of cash for sign on and victory bonuses would pay for a basketball star's weekly poker night.

Throwing the game, the ones I know of, weren't to win, or gain tournament advantage, they were to gain or maintain sponsorships when throwing the game was beneficial to one team and not detrimental to the other. When there's no money and piss poor prizes (relative to the entry and paint costs), the real prize is a long term sponsorship.

Its funny. We're such neophytes at, well, everything - public exposure, venues, prizes, PR. In other words, all the positives about major league sports. We're damned excellent at all the negatives though.

Lost opportunties.

Janecka

 

[Baca Loco]

Hi Larry. Where's problem?
I think you're highlighting a common motivator when, for the most part, I can't even get peeps to admit to knowing anything about the general topic as Paintball's last taboo subject.