SP at it again...
- Thread starter J@mes
- Start date
Could you post some quotes here? Surely someone wont mind trawling through PbN so we don't have to!
O
ollytheosteo
Guest
OK, bear in mind that these are quotes taken out of context of both a severe pasting from several very bright people and a lot of tossers calling him teh ghey. In order to get the whole thing you MUST READ THE THREAD (just hold your nose if the bull**** gets too deep) but here are some little gems from the man who picked the wrong week to quit drinking
On the talk about SP suing KEE;
“I do not know how this misinformation makes it to the Internet, but no lawsuits have been filed against Kee Action Sports. Please check your sources.
Thank you,
Bill Gardner”
In an attempt to get struck by lightning as the earth yawns into a gaping chasm under his feet and swallows him forever;
“I assure you that Smart Parts does not patent ideas that it does not originate.”
To which the response is;
"Here are the ACTUAL WORDS FROM THE JUDGE regarding if SP actually did invent the electro paintgun:
Quote:
Although Smart Parts is correct that
there is no specific requirement that inventors have engineering degrees or other formal training,
the evidence also strongly suggests that neither Billy nor Adam could have invented what is
claimed.
Quote:
Smart Parts relies almost exclusively on the fact that Billy Gardner allegedly had a mockup
gun in the 1993-1994 timeframe. But, Smart Parts offers almost nothing but an allegation
regarding the existence of the gun and its details. Again, when questioned, Billy Gardner could
provide absolutely no information regarding his purported conception.
Garr M. King
United States District Judge
OK Bill-
According to JUDGE KING, you are lying to us. Plain and simple."
On reality;
"Look guys, it is not so simple. In starting a business you risk all you are and all you have. The government is much like the general population of PBnation. They do not understand the difficulties of running a business and they do not care. All they evaluate is the general consensus. Smart Parts employs a large number of wonderful people, who are proud of what they do and what we have accomplished as a company. Business is not that much different than a paintball game. Someone sets the rules and you do the best you can within the rules. Of course you do all you can to further your talents and maximize your opportunities to win the game. People question your victory, analyze your style and discuss the “what ifs” associated with your win. But winners continue to win. You win because you have talent and you think and work to make yourself better, and most important you have a set of established values. You build on these values and others follow your leadership because of these values. The characterizations about Smart Parts, that some of you espouse do not track with the companies success. People either have values and character or they do not, there is no middle ground. You confuse the motivations of a publicly traded company with the motivations of a family business. The publicly traded company is generally cold and uncaring as well as motivated by profits and their board of directors is more concerned about filing the proper paperwork with the SEC than determining the future of the business. The family business, on the other hand, makes decisions that make sense for the future of the business and its employees. Approximately fifty percent of the U.S. GDP is generated by these businesses, and most of these businesses are based on a strong set of values. Smart Parts sustainable advantage over the competition is good people; this may be the only sustainable advantage that exists in business. Good people do not follow leaders without values and do not follow the people you characterize in your posts. The fact do not support your conclusions, yet you face a choice you can continue to follow like lambs to the slaughter or open your minds and evaluate us based on what we and the company have achieved. Those that know us can sense the values that we represent. Many of the dealers who are facing hard times, will soon see that Smart Parts support the industry and the players, probably better than any other company in the business. Many of you associate our success with the stereotype of the ruthless businessperson. A stereotype which may be associated with the vast majority of publicly traded companies, but a stereotype that does not fit the average family business, and in this case could not be further from the truth. To those who suggest that we put them out of business, this is just not the case. We always tried to license our technology and many of these people had the choice to license as the vast majority of the industry has now done or fight. If you choose to fight you had better be in the right and obviously given the results they made the wrong choice. As for the industry paying for our patents, we produced the best low cost marker in the marketplace, and as you will soon find out we are about to improve upon that commitment. Yes we are the value leader in more than one way. It is time for the Nation to quit the senseless attack on Smart Parts and time for the American government to stop its senseless attack on the winners, the family businesses that project their values on the country and provide for the vast majority of your livelihoods. I do not expect much from this post, maybe a few will understand the point that I make, but in many ways the Nation reflects the values of our society and I can only hope that the Nation can appreciate what I have just said."
Anyone hoping for a career in politics look and learn, talk about a load of old......I especially like the following exert;
"Many of you associate our success with the stereotype of the ruthless businessperson. A stereotype which may be associated with the vast majority of publicly traded companies, but a stereotype that does not fit the average family business, and in this case could not be further from the truth. To those who suggest that we put them out of business, this is just not the case. We always tried to license our technology and many of these people had the choice to license as the vast majority of the industry has now done or fight. If you choose to fight you had better be in the right and obviously given the results they made the wrong choice."
Wow. For those of you out of the loop this refers to SP patenting the shocker, then years later going back and altering the patent to include huge areas of gun technology like putting a switch in the trigger, using electronics etc. Having taken advantage of the crappy US patent laws to alter the space-time continuum they then sent cease and desist notices to every company making electros on the basis they were using tech 'owned' by SP and demanded license payments on every gun sold. Companies with the resources and clout to hire lawyers like WDP fought them off (go WDP!) but little ones with limited budgets for lots and lots of lawyers stopped making electros (we miss you AKA and E-Mags).
Then on to the magic box;
"The magic box is a perfect example of the dilemma I currently face. The magic box increased the size of the air chamber and lowered the operating pressure of the Automag. A generally excepted principal in today’s quality markers, low operating pressure equals better accuracy. A new concept at the time, and obviously not exactly accepted yet thousands of people purchased the magic box. I wonder why? Maybe it worked?"
"I apologies for my tone but I have been answering the same questions for ten years. Part of my frustration surrounds the fact that my competition at the time started all the misnomers about the magic box. It worked. Many people bought it and liked it. The All Americans liked it and insisted on having it. I do not know what else to say. Low -pressure equals better accuracy. Almost all high- end guns use lower pressure than the Automag and most run at lower pressure than the automag with the magic box."
For those out there that don't recall the magic box was a $350 'upgrade' that sat on the side of a mag and was touted as increasing range and accuracy. When dissected by the clever folks it turned out to be made of stock air fittings worth about $20 and when tested did **** all
The pressure is building and so the old standby of e-thuggery and whining comes into play;
"I am dislexic remember. I have to run everything through the spell checker.
I mean I am dyslexic remember so I have to run everything through the spelling checker"
"I have tried to explain ballistic co-efficent and the affect of pressure on a paintball for years. Funny enough only engineers understand the argument. I will try to simplify. I can get you up to fifty miles per hour two ways. I can put you in my car or I can hit you with my car, as a paintball which would you prefer"
"You have to understand the history. Paintball was and is a small tight community. We had many friends but also fierce rivals. A great deal of these misconceptions were generated years ago for reasons that have nothing to do with the patent case. During the patent litigation, nothing can be said. So I had no choice but to remain quite. I am just making a futile effort to set the record straight."
So there you go, it was all down to way back then. And whilst talking about the good old days, here's his take on Tom Kaye of AGD;
"Tom Kay was wrong. As much as I liked him, he is not making paintball equipment anymore. He never loved to play the game. It was more of a business than a passion. He has found his passion now, and I bet he is a lot happier."
"Are you sure TK was an engineer? Many qualified engineers make mistakes with empirical testing and draw the wrong conclusion because they rely on the wrong set of variables. It happens all the time."
To which Mr Kaye responds;
Hello All,
Sorry I am late to the party. What a thread!! My comments:
I am NOT a degreed engineer. I only have a high school education. I do have decades of experience designing machinery and computer control systems and doing scientific research. I am right now at a science meeting in Austin TX preparing to give a talk on laser fluorescence. I am first and foremost interested in the TRUTH. This is why we did the research and as you all know, have made our findings public. I always have endeavored to answer questions straight and to the point. If you want to criticize my thinking, here it is have at it. I have learned much from hanging around people smarter than I am.
Much of what we discovered ran contrary to the popular opinion in paintball. Things like barrel length, working pressure etc have often made us look out of place in the mainstream market and in all honesty contributed to much of our decline. Now that the upper segment of the market has matured in their thinking, many of these things are now obvious, but flash and sponsorships still sell more product.
Magic Box
In the mid nineties there was a conversion from CO2 to compressed air. We supported the Magic Box based on the following statement. "When you switched to compressed air your working pressure in the chamber went up. The increased volume of the Black Box brought that pressure back down to where it was with CO2 so your marker felt the same when you shot it." We never supported any claims beyond that.
We had warranty issues with the modifications since they tended to leak. Smart Parts was a huge customer of ours and we wanted to make them happy, so we offered to drill extra holes along the on/off to expand the chamber and offered SP that valve instead of the Black Box. They did but the product tapered off quickly anyway. In later generations of the stock valve we made the walls thinner to increase the volume. Volume increases happened in every version of the valve starting with 5.0 and earlier prototypes.
Did I like paintball??
Sometimes I absolutely loved it and other times totally hated it. It was a fantastic industry when the major players would sit down to dinner at Debbie Dion's house after the Amateur Open and we would collectively discuss ways to improve the game. We were all out for a common goal and helping each other achieve that seemed natural. Debbie was complaining to me in the last couple years of the Am Open that she couldn't have a dinner any more because everyone was in lawsuits. That is a good example of what I found to be good and bad with paintball.
Bill,
You made a mistake coming here to the internet paintball community. These people will not be put off, will not accept partial answers and will hold you accountable for everything you say. They are not your typical customer. Even through all the bickering and flaming, the collective consciousness of this community sits at nothing less than the genius level. They are the highest and best of what paintball has to offer. I have trusted and turned to them for years and they have allowed me to walk among them for which I am grateful. Your success in this industry is undeniable, success in the forums is a whole different matter. Smart Parts has earned its place, there should be no need for you to defend it here.
Tom Kaye
And to those still reading and awake, we finish on the idea that all this patent dickery and legal BS is to save us from the heathen Chinee in a subtle take on the 'why do you hate America/freedom/apple pie' argument;
If I had not filed these patent the Chinese would be making everything, as it is they are making a great deal of the equipment in the marketplace. I employ roughly two hundred Americans making paintball guns that I do not regret. Maybe I could have done some things differently, but I was young and unexperienced. I did the best I was capable of. Maybe I will do better in the future. We never forced anyone out of business. We just asked for a royalty, there decision to fight put them out of business.
To which the clever folk respond;
Quote:
“The concept was to take this advanced technology and make it available to the market at the right price levels,” explained Gardner. “We had to start a company in China to achieve the cost advantages required for certain elements of the ION gun, while also investing in the finest machining we could find.”
Quote:
After we went through years of patent battles, we were able to take this high-end technology to the lower end of the market. This made our competition irrelevant in terms of price and patent protection. We could sell a much better gun at a much better price.
Quote:
But all that thinking, planning, fighting, and investing paid off. “Once the ION was introduced, the company doubled in size in one year,” Gardner said.
http://news.pghtech.org/teq/teqstory.cfm?ID=1680
so SmartParts is making most of their profits with chinese manufacturing?
Pwnt as I believe the young people say.
So there you go, I repeat the advice to read the thread and see lots more and all this stuff in context, but that should give an idea of the people that are out to save paintball and make life better for all of us by suing everyone and putting fellow family-run American companies out of business using underhand patent trickery because they make a better product. I need a shower
On the talk about SP suing KEE;
“I do not know how this misinformation makes it to the Internet, but no lawsuits have been filed against Kee Action Sports. Please check your sources.
Thank you,
Bill Gardner”
In an attempt to get struck by lightning as the earth yawns into a gaping chasm under his feet and swallows him forever;
“I assure you that Smart Parts does not patent ideas that it does not originate.”
To which the response is;
"Here are the ACTUAL WORDS FROM THE JUDGE regarding if SP actually did invent the electro paintgun:
Quote:
Although Smart Parts is correct that
there is no specific requirement that inventors have engineering degrees or other formal training,
the evidence also strongly suggests that neither Billy nor Adam could have invented what is
claimed.
Quote:
Smart Parts relies almost exclusively on the fact that Billy Gardner allegedly had a mockup
gun in the 1993-1994 timeframe. But, Smart Parts offers almost nothing but an allegation
regarding the existence of the gun and its details. Again, when questioned, Billy Gardner could
provide absolutely no information regarding his purported conception.
Garr M. King
United States District Judge
OK Bill-
According to JUDGE KING, you are lying to us. Plain and simple."
On reality;
"Look guys, it is not so simple. In starting a business you risk all you are and all you have. The government is much like the general population of PBnation. They do not understand the difficulties of running a business and they do not care. All they evaluate is the general consensus. Smart Parts employs a large number of wonderful people, who are proud of what they do and what we have accomplished as a company. Business is not that much different than a paintball game. Someone sets the rules and you do the best you can within the rules. Of course you do all you can to further your talents and maximize your opportunities to win the game. People question your victory, analyze your style and discuss the “what ifs” associated with your win. But winners continue to win. You win because you have talent and you think and work to make yourself better, and most important you have a set of established values. You build on these values and others follow your leadership because of these values. The characterizations about Smart Parts, that some of you espouse do not track with the companies success. People either have values and character or they do not, there is no middle ground. You confuse the motivations of a publicly traded company with the motivations of a family business. The publicly traded company is generally cold and uncaring as well as motivated by profits and their board of directors is more concerned about filing the proper paperwork with the SEC than determining the future of the business. The family business, on the other hand, makes decisions that make sense for the future of the business and its employees. Approximately fifty percent of the U.S. GDP is generated by these businesses, and most of these businesses are based on a strong set of values. Smart Parts sustainable advantage over the competition is good people; this may be the only sustainable advantage that exists in business. Good people do not follow leaders without values and do not follow the people you characterize in your posts. The fact do not support your conclusions, yet you face a choice you can continue to follow like lambs to the slaughter or open your minds and evaluate us based on what we and the company have achieved. Those that know us can sense the values that we represent. Many of the dealers who are facing hard times, will soon see that Smart Parts support the industry and the players, probably better than any other company in the business. Many of you associate our success with the stereotype of the ruthless businessperson. A stereotype which may be associated with the vast majority of publicly traded companies, but a stereotype that does not fit the average family business, and in this case could not be further from the truth. To those who suggest that we put them out of business, this is just not the case. We always tried to license our technology and many of these people had the choice to license as the vast majority of the industry has now done or fight. If you choose to fight you had better be in the right and obviously given the results they made the wrong choice. As for the industry paying for our patents, we produced the best low cost marker in the marketplace, and as you will soon find out we are about to improve upon that commitment. Yes we are the value leader in more than one way. It is time for the Nation to quit the senseless attack on Smart Parts and time for the American government to stop its senseless attack on the winners, the family businesses that project their values on the country and provide for the vast majority of your livelihoods. I do not expect much from this post, maybe a few will understand the point that I make, but in many ways the Nation reflects the values of our society and I can only hope that the Nation can appreciate what I have just said."
Anyone hoping for a career in politics look and learn, talk about a load of old......I especially like the following exert;
"Many of you associate our success with the stereotype of the ruthless businessperson. A stereotype which may be associated with the vast majority of publicly traded companies, but a stereotype that does not fit the average family business, and in this case could not be further from the truth. To those who suggest that we put them out of business, this is just not the case. We always tried to license our technology and many of these people had the choice to license as the vast majority of the industry has now done or fight. If you choose to fight you had better be in the right and obviously given the results they made the wrong choice."
Wow. For those of you out of the loop this refers to SP patenting the shocker, then years later going back and altering the patent to include huge areas of gun technology like putting a switch in the trigger, using electronics etc. Having taken advantage of the crappy US patent laws to alter the space-time continuum they then sent cease and desist notices to every company making electros on the basis they were using tech 'owned' by SP and demanded license payments on every gun sold. Companies with the resources and clout to hire lawyers like WDP fought them off (go WDP!) but little ones with limited budgets for lots and lots of lawyers stopped making electros (we miss you AKA and E-Mags
).Then on to the magic box;
"The magic box is a perfect example of the dilemma I currently face. The magic box increased the size of the air chamber and lowered the operating pressure of the Automag. A generally excepted principal in today’s quality markers, low operating pressure equals better accuracy. A new concept at the time, and obviously not exactly accepted yet thousands of people purchased the magic box. I wonder why? Maybe it worked?"
"I apologies for my tone but I have been answering the same questions for ten years. Part of my frustration surrounds the fact that my competition at the time started all the misnomers about the magic box. It worked. Many people bought it and liked it. The All Americans liked it and insisted on having it. I do not know what else to say. Low -pressure equals better accuracy. Almost all high- end guns use lower pressure than the Automag and most run at lower pressure than the automag with the magic box."
For those out there that don't recall the magic box was a $350 'upgrade' that sat on the side of a mag and was touted as increasing range and accuracy. When dissected by the clever folks it turned out to be made of stock air fittings worth about $20 and when tested did **** all
The pressure is building and so the old standby of e-thuggery and whining comes into play;
"I am dislexic remember. I have to run everything through the spell checker.
I mean I am dyslexic remember so I have to run everything through the spelling checker"
"I have tried to explain ballistic co-efficent and the affect of pressure on a paintball for years. Funny enough only engineers understand the argument. I will try to simplify. I can get you up to fifty miles per hour two ways. I can put you in my car or I can hit you with my car, as a paintball which would you prefer"
"You have to understand the history. Paintball was and is a small tight community. We had many friends but also fierce rivals. A great deal of these misconceptions were generated years ago for reasons that have nothing to do with the patent case. During the patent litigation, nothing can be said. So I had no choice but to remain quite. I am just making a futile effort to set the record straight."
So there you go, it was all down to way back then. And whilst talking about the good old days, here's his take on Tom Kaye of AGD;
"Tom Kay was wrong. As much as I liked him, he is not making paintball equipment anymore. He never loved to play the game. It was more of a business than a passion. He has found his passion now, and I bet he is a lot happier."
"Are you sure TK was an engineer? Many qualified engineers make mistakes with empirical testing and draw the wrong conclusion because they rely on the wrong set of variables. It happens all the time."
To which Mr Kaye responds;
Hello All,
Sorry I am late to the party. What a thread!! My comments:
I am NOT a degreed engineer. I only have a high school education. I do have decades of experience designing machinery and computer control systems and doing scientific research. I am right now at a science meeting in Austin TX preparing to give a talk on laser fluorescence. I am first and foremost interested in the TRUTH. This is why we did the research and as you all know, have made our findings public. I always have endeavored to answer questions straight and to the point. If you want to criticize my thinking, here it is have at it. I have learned much from hanging around people smarter than I am.
Much of what we discovered ran contrary to the popular opinion in paintball. Things like barrel length, working pressure etc have often made us look out of place in the mainstream market and in all honesty contributed to much of our decline. Now that the upper segment of the market has matured in their thinking, many of these things are now obvious, but flash and sponsorships still sell more product.
Magic Box
In the mid nineties there was a conversion from CO2 to compressed air. We supported the Magic Box based on the following statement. "When you switched to compressed air your working pressure in the chamber went up. The increased volume of the Black Box brought that pressure back down to where it was with CO2 so your marker felt the same when you shot it." We never supported any claims beyond that.
We had warranty issues with the modifications since they tended to leak. Smart Parts was a huge customer of ours and we wanted to make them happy, so we offered to drill extra holes along the on/off to expand the chamber and offered SP that valve instead of the Black Box. They did but the product tapered off quickly anyway. In later generations of the stock valve we made the walls thinner to increase the volume. Volume increases happened in every version of the valve starting with 5.0 and earlier prototypes.
Did I like paintball??
Sometimes I absolutely loved it and other times totally hated it. It was a fantastic industry when the major players would sit down to dinner at Debbie Dion's house after the Amateur Open and we would collectively discuss ways to improve the game. We were all out for a common goal and helping each other achieve that seemed natural. Debbie was complaining to me in the last couple years of the Am Open that she couldn't have a dinner any more because everyone was in lawsuits. That is a good example of what I found to be good and bad with paintball.
Bill,
You made a mistake coming here to the internet paintball community. These people will not be put off, will not accept partial answers and will hold you accountable for everything you say. They are not your typical customer. Even through all the bickering and flaming, the collective consciousness of this community sits at nothing less than the genius level. They are the highest and best of what paintball has to offer. I have trusted and turned to them for years and they have allowed me to walk among them for which I am grateful. Your success in this industry is undeniable, success in the forums is a whole different matter. Smart Parts has earned its place, there should be no need for you to defend it here.
Tom Kaye
And to those still reading and awake, we finish on the idea that all this patent dickery and legal BS is to save us from the heathen Chinee in a subtle take on the 'why do you hate America/freedom/apple pie' argument;
If I had not filed these patent the Chinese would be making everything, as it is they are making a great deal of the equipment in the marketplace. I employ roughly two hundred Americans making paintball guns that I do not regret. Maybe I could have done some things differently, but I was young and unexperienced. I did the best I was capable of. Maybe I will do better in the future. We never forced anyone out of business. We just asked for a royalty, there decision to fight put them out of business.
To which the clever folk respond;
Quote:
“The concept was to take this advanced technology and make it available to the market at the right price levels,” explained Gardner. “We had to start a company in China to achieve the cost advantages required for certain elements of the ION gun, while also investing in the finest machining we could find.”
Quote:
After we went through years of patent battles, we were able to take this high-end technology to the lower end of the market. This made our competition irrelevant in terms of price and patent protection. We could sell a much better gun at a much better price.
Quote:
But all that thinking, planning, fighting, and investing paid off. “Once the ION was introduced, the company doubled in size in one year,” Gardner said.
http://news.pghtech.org/teq/teqstory.cfm?ID=1680
so SmartParts is making most of their profits with chinese manufacturing?
Pwnt as I believe the young people say.
So there you go, I repeat the advice to read the thread and see lots more and all this stuff in context, but that should give an idea of the people that are out to save paintball and make life better for all of us by suing everyone and putting fellow family-run American companies out of business using underhand patent trickery because they make a better product. I need a shower
just to add to Olly's piece of epic proportions up there
Doc Nickels post
Doc Nickels post
The most polite way to demolish someone ever!!!DocNickel said: