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Question about US vs Europe

Urban

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Oct 31, 2001
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Well..

Originally posted by raehl
"Willing" to pay is MUCH more important than ABLE to pay. Anyone who isn't able also is not willing. There are plenty of people able to pay who will not.
Partly wrong... I would be quite 'willing' to pay £158,000 for a new Aston Martin Vanquish however I don't have it so I am not 'able' to pay. With the price of markers, paint, protection, travel, accomodation, f*cking millenium cards, etc, the real definition of 'able' is going to become a much more valid factor than any amount of 'willing'.

When I say one day event, in that case, I mean just play pros. Rookie->Amateur Fri->Sat (or maybe still friday to sunday) and Pros on Sunday only. I really think the NPPL/PSP way of having people play across divisions to see who makes semis is silly.
Completely agree with playing across divisions... daft idea. I think if your going split the play the way you suggest then all levels have to play on Sunday, for example, or your going to end up with empty stands come Sunday Morning. How many players, for example, given that they have just been fleeced compared with what they paid last year, are going to spend another nights cash staying over to watch the Pro's play the next day?

Player perception comes in here as well. A slight increase in entrance prices you will get away with but if you jack the cost enough to put some teams off entering, the ones that do pay the extra and enter are going to expect something extra in return or you are going to get complaints... lot's of them.

I agree on format. Centerflag isn't going to work. XBall is an improvement, although I think the USPL format was better than that. (Too bad the USPL plan to deliver that format stunk.)
I'm still unconvinced regarding the validity of X-Ball as any more spectator-friendly than what we have now. It will very much depend on how it plays out and that is down to the tactics that get developed, which is directly down to the mindset of the players. We'll have to wait and see if anything new develops from X-Ball.

Urban
 
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raehl

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The problem is, you are ABLE to pay the 158,000 pounds. You'll just have to rack up a huge amount of debt to do so and not spend your money on much else other than food. Thus you're not WILLING to do so. Whenever you spend money, it's a choice between spending that money on one thing or another. Now, obviously, people with more money are able to spend money on more things, and are thus WILLING to spend money on things they may not have been willing to spend money on if they have less. Basically, people have a priority list on things they'll spend money on, and combined with the amount of money they have available, that determines what they're WILLING to spend money on. Pretty much everyone is ABLE to pay $5k/year to play all the NPPL/PSP events. The question is whether they're WILLING to drive a crappy car, live in a crappy apartment, and not have any money left over to eat out and go to the movies to do so. If people want to be able to do something, they have to be WILLING to pay for it.


As for the pros on Sunday - if no one wants to stay until sunday to watch the pros play, who cares? The vendors are paying to sell to the other divisions anyway, so if everyone packs up after saturday and leaves the pros to play by themselves, maybe that's a good thing. It'd force the pros to find a way to finance themselves beyond riding piggyback on the am/novice leagues.


And XBall - you're right, we'll have to see what happens. It's just 5-man centerflag over and over again, so your midgame problem is still there, unless the time factor gets people to play more aggressive. It's a step in the right direction, although I don't think it gets us all the way there.

- Chris
 

Urban

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The last two paragraphs of your post I agree with, valid points, but this seems to display either a college-based, 'never-been-in-the-real-world' view of finance or just a dogged stubbornness without consideration for the real facts of life...

Originally posted by raehl
The problem is, you are ABLE to pay the 158,000 pounds. You'll just have to rack up a huge amount of debt to do so and not spend your money on much else other than food. Thus you're not WILLING to do so. Whenever you spend money, it's a choice between spending that money on one thing or another. Now, obviously, people with more money are able to spend money on more things, and are thus WILLING to spend money on things they may not have been willing to spend money on if they have less
Utter rubbish. If I was in anyway 'able' to own a Vanquish I would already do so. You seem completely oblivious to real world factors... like a £25,000 a year salary taking 7 years to save up for a car that would, by then with inflation, cost £200,000. And that is without eating. Let's allow £2000 for food each year, as we have some spare, and I'll live naked in a ditch... still doesn't work does it?

Oh, borrow the money.. yes why not? Banks will not loan anyone on £25k a year £160k for a car! Ever! Basic depreciation destroys the banks financial investment. Find me one and I'll apologise and give you first drive!

Let's leave the 'willing' and 'able' out of this as the definitions are obviously very different on your planet.

;)

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raehl

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Yeah but...

I'm sure you could find someone willing to buy it for you if you promised to work for them for 20-30 years in exhange for room and board. Be a butler or something.

See? WILLING! ;)


But yeah, a momentary mathematical lapse in addition to failure to correctly exchange currency made me make a little TOO extreme of an example out of that.



But still, pretty much everyone is ABLE to pay higher tournament costs. A good deal arn't WILLING to pay current costs, and some won't be WILLING to pay the additional costs, which is exactly the point. If you're getting too many teams for the money you have, better to get yourself some more revenue and discourage some teams in the process (a balance between more money and less teams) than just go first-come, first-serve, where you're going to have to make up for the money you're not getting br raising prices by having even FEWER teams than if you had raised prices.

More people get to play a quality event if prices are raised.


I probably should have just made that point in the beginning.


- Chris
 

Liz

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Jan 17, 2002
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Yeah but...

Originally posted by raehl
I'm sure you could find someone willing to buy it for you if you promised to work for them for 20-30 years in exhange for room and board. Be a butler or something.

See? WILLING! ;)


But yeah, a momentary mathematical lapse in addition to failure to correctly exchange currency made me make a little TOO extreme of an example out of that.



But still, pretty much everyone is ABLE to pay higher tournament costs. A good deal arn't WILLING to pay current costs, and some won't be WILLING to pay the additional costs, which is exactly the point. If you're getting too many teams for the money you have, better to get yourself some more revenue and discourage some teams in the process (a balance between more money and less teams) than just go first-come, first-serve, where you're going to have to make up for the money you're not getting br raising prices by having even FEWER teams than if you had raised prices.

More people get to play a quality event if prices are raised.


I probably should have just made that point in the beginning.


- Chris
B*llsh*t Chris.
You clearly have never had any dependants, had a mortgage or probably had to support yourself in any way. I suppose in THEORY it's a matter of willingness rather than ability if someone chooses to feed their kids & keep a roof over their heads rather than play at major tournaments, but the degree you are labouring the point shows a passion for semantics that doesn't fit very well with those of us who live in the real world.
And no, I don't have any dependants, have a tiny mortgage & can afford to play as much as my worn out body will stand so have no axa to grind on my own behalf.
 
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raehl

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So?

Having kids and a mortgage is a choice. You're WILLING to have a smaller mortgage in exchange for being able to play paintball. You could give up paintball and move into a nicer house, right? You're an example of the point. not a counter example.

I'm not trying sar that all people are very likely at all to play, but that there is no set level of income where someone suddenly becomes "able" to play. It's a scale, from Bill Gates, who only has to worry about what he wants to spend his time on, to a family of 8 living below the poverty line. Obviously, at the right end of that scale, paintball just isn't a choice people are likely to make (the could still go blow the months grocery money on a day at the field, but they'd be dumb.) But there's no point on that scale where you have able vs. not able. Someone making $25k a year who REALLY loves paintball may structure the rest of their lives to allow them to play and be "able" to while someone else making $60k may put priority on house/car/family/savings/whatever and insist that they're not "able" to afford paintball. They *ARE* able, they're just not willing. That's now supply and demand works: You can't simply expect that given two people, the person with more money will be the one who will get the product. It's the person who is willing to spend the most money ON THAT PRODUCT that gets it. Ability has almost NOTHING to do with it - there are plenty of $30k wage earners out there who would buy a case of paint that $1mil income earners wouldn't drop a dime on.

To go back to the more direct example, you can't tell me that someone who is able to pay $1750 for a tournament likely suddenly becomes unable at $2000. At $1750, we've established that the person has a good chunk of disposable income, and it's not likely that ALL of it is going to paintball - so the question is whether they want to reallocate some more of that income to paintball, or if they'd rather maintain some other activities.

Another point to be made is that even if the $250 did go past a person's disposable income, it's *STILL* a matter of WILLING, and not able, because said person still has the option of working more hours, getting a second job, getting their team to organize fund raisers, or doing any manner of other things to come up with the extra cash. It's just a matter of whether they're willing to put in the extra work and time. Is more workand time worth continued attendence to them?

Again, the main point that may have been forgotten is this:

If prices are raised, teams will NOT suddenly become unable to afford to play. Some teams will simply become unwilling to pay the additional expense, which is exactly what you're going for: Limitting the attendence a bit to the people who want to play more based on their willingness to commit resources (money AND time) to playing. We *ALREADY* do this - there are plenty of people out there who WOULD play NPPL/PSP if it cost $1000 instead of $1750, but arn't willing to pay the extra expense to pay now. You're just adjusting the prie point, and I submit that all the bitching about teams not "able" to pay the extra is really bitching about NPPL/PSP demanding more of a commitment than they're willing to make and not wanting to be "excluded from the glory" or whatever. No one has to play NPPL/PSP - plenty of other tournament options out there. People need to realize that playing in the top league is NOT some sort of freaking entitlement. You can play there when you're willing to pony up what it takes to do so - and that may (and should) mean paying more money (or at least be contributing more effort - picking up their own trash would save the league having to pay someone else to do it, it's the simple things) to allow for quality events in quality facilities if you have any expectation of outside industry sponsorship or television broadcast.

Players can keep demanding more without being willing to contribute more, but it simply ain't going to happen.


And as for who I "clearly" am, while I don't have a mortgage, I do have rent, car payments, insurance, all the utilities, and everything else a self-supporting person with a good credit rating has. You should know better than making the "You clearly..." argument without actually having some clarity.


- Chris