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Psp At It Again!!

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Originally posted by Mark
1--Ok Baca whilst I can agree with your #1 answer and sorta #2 though don't think it is bandwagon jumping as you and I well know Disney was well in the pipeline long before X ball (outside pressures may have been applied once the success of X ball was predicted, plus an endevour to sooth any discomfort felt with the PSP NPPL split) but anyhow.

2--Your #2 look at the schedule at the begining of this thread Am's don't play anyone but themselves so it only leaves the Novice, the Rookies and the Pro's so unless the Rookies are gonna play against themselves the Divisions will be Pro, Novice and Rookie hence the "ideal world" list I posted for order of play due to ability
Not a great idea to face a Pro team as a Rookie or even as a Novice, (not saying you should never try and play a little harder and try to elevate your skills etc) The Am tourny (10 man is all over when the prelims start for the rest) so who is left to get hammered?? Plus I have read on places like pbnation (when the damned server wasn't crashing !!) that the Am's feel cheated out of a tourny (actually it is younger players bitching about having to miss school mainly, but then I will be there for the week before the tourny and for a couple of days after so it doesn't effect me, but does seem a little silly not to take the whole week as holiday...hey it is sunny Florida) I am in the situation of having to play teams above my rating ...personally I don't care but then for the "big picture" it needs to be raised that it appears unfair.
1--Mark, you're outta the loop, my brotha, if you will re-read my original number 3 perhaps it will sink in. Disney was originally pursued with the intention of showcasing a NPPL/PSP style event finals. Not X-Ball. Now, after the IAO and Nations Cup the whole WC schedule is changed and Sunday at Disney is now an X-Ball exhibition.
2--the way any other NPPL/PSP event would have been run and has been run in four other events to date this year is this: Prelims--Pro plays (usually) three other Pros and a 2/3 mix of Ams and Novs (usually). Am plays one Pro in prelims with other 7 games a mix of Am and Nov. Novs play one Pro, one Am, one (or sometimes two) Rookies, the rest other Novs. Rookies play a mix of Nov and Rookie. All they are going to do is jury rig some similar schedule minus the Ams.
With the changes made to accomodate X-Ball exhibition 5-man is beginning play on Sunday instead of Monday. Ams are playing 10-man as a stand alone on Tues. & Wed. instead of Friday, Saturday and Sunday and are then being asked to ref everyone else. The 10-man prelims if this schedule holds will be designed as usual but leave Ams out which means Novs still play one Pro and what would have been an Am game will probably now be another Nov or extra Rookie game.
What the Ams and any one else who is unhappy has a real problem with is late change of dates as WC typically attracts twice the number of teams as any other event and many teams make their travel arrangements well in advance to get cheaper plane tickets for example. That and school schedules are going to hurt the Ams and numerous Novs and Rookies and the only reason any of this is being done is to accomodate an X-Ball Sunday that nobody was comtemplating prior to IAO.

Tony--quit using your product, dude.
Any teams that regularly play the NPPL know exactly what they're getting and that's the problem. This time they ain't. WC normally would have expected around 150 Nov/Rookie 10-mans showing. Those that sign to play Rookie are doing so to AVOID playing the "big boys" and the Novs get one of each, Pro and Am (normally). Truth is half the Novs or more don't belong either in terms of their ability to actually be competitive with the top Novs much less the "big boys."
 

Tony Montana

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Aug 16, 2002
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Baca

The truth be known probably 40% of the team who attend the World Cup are not the teams that "regularly play the NPPL", so that takes them out of having a problem with who the play based on who the usually play at NPPL tournament.

Of the remaining 60% of teams, I bet more than 75% of those had not already booked flights, nor do they really care who is on the schedule.

So really we are talking about 15-25 teams who are inconvenienced enough to complain. Do you think that is reason enough to not go with the schedule that has the best chance of a good show on at Disney?

People say the NPPL is not looking out for the players. I say they are doing a step more. They are putting on an event that may benefit all present and future players. And they are using a format that not only doesn't belong to them, but is designed to be direct competition to them. And if what Richmond says is correct, he has every intention of eventually going head to head with the NPPL/PSP with X-Ball. So, in an effort to put on the best possible show for PAINTBALL, they are using a competitors format ahead of their own. isn't that reason enough to think they at least have intentions of doing something for paintball and not themselves?

I believe you were at the IAO. You couldn't help but notice the overwhelming success of X-Ball as a spectator friendly game, as compared to the standard 10 man finals we are all used to. Obviously PSP/NPPL noticed too. I believe it is a good decision to have X-Ball as the forst show for Disney. i applaud PSP/NPPL for having the fortitude to put X-Ball ahead of their own stale format.

Is it so wrong to inconvenience a relative few when trying to do something with such an enormous possible upside on Disneys property, for Disney to see. This could POSSIBLY be the biggest boost to tournament paintball in history. I doubt it. I'm not really an optimist at heart. But isn't the possibility worth the strain it puts on a few teams?

-question - If Static were told the week before Atlantic City that there was an event arranged by the alternative marketing crew from Nike to see paintball teams for possible support from Nike and it was to be held the day after the finals, and they were invited, would they not change their tickets and stay in a hotel an extra night to jump at the chance? Isn't this similar? The difference is that Static (and most other teams) would be interested in doing it IF it was for THEIR IMMEDIATE PERSONAL benefit, but not necessarily if it was for paintball as a whole.

Just my two cents, and another way of looking at it.

BTW - I don't always agree with what you say, but I do read it and admire that you put thought into your posts. It is almost a lost art on paintball forums these days.
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Today's word, boyz and girlz, is "damage control"

Originally posted by Tony Montana
Baca

1--The truth be known probably 40% of the team who attend the World Cup are not the teams that "regularly play the NPPL", so that takes them out of having a problem with who the play based on who the usually play at NPPL tournament.

2--Of the remaining 60% of teams, I bet more than 75% of those had not already booked flights, nor do they really care who is on the schedule.
So really we are talking about 15-25 teams who are inconvenienced enough to complain. Do you think that is reason enough to not go with the schedule that has the best chance of a good show on at Disney?

3--People say the NPPL is not looking out for the players. I say they are doing a step more. They are putting on an event that may benefit all present and future players. And they are using a format that not only doesn't belong to them, but is designed to be direct competition to them. And if what Richmond says is correct, he has every intention of eventually going head to head with the NPPL/PSP with X-Ball. So, in an effort to put on the best possible show for PAINTBALL, they are using a competitors format ahead of their own. isn't that reason enough to think they at least have intentions of doing something for paintball and not themselves?

4--I believe you were at the IAO. You couldn't help but notice the overwhelming success of X-Ball as a spectator friendly game, as compared to the standard 10 man finals we are all used to. Obviously PSP/NPPL noticed too. I believe it is a good decision to have X-Ball as the forst show for Disney. i applaud PSP/NPPL for having the fortitude to put X-Ball ahead of their own stale format.

5--Is it so wrong to inconvenience a relative few when trying to do something with such an enormous possible upside on Disneys property, for Disney to see. This could POSSIBLY be the biggest boost to tournament paintball in history. I doubt it. I'm not really an optimist at heart. But isn't the possibility worth the strain it puts on a few teams?

6---question - If Static were told the week before Atlantic City that there was an event arranged by the alternative marketing crew from Nike to see paintball teams for possible support from Nike and it was to be held the day after the finals, and they were invited, would they not change their tickets and stay in a hotel an extra night to jump at the chance? Isn't this similar? The difference is that Static (and most other teams) would be interested in doing it IF it was for THEIR IMMEDIATE PERSONAL benefit, but not necessarily if it was for paintball as a whole.

Just my two cents, and another way of looking at it.

BTW - I don't always agree with what you say, but I do read it and admire that you put thought into your posts. It is almost a lost art on paintball forums these days.
Tony, flattery will get you everywhere but don't think that will get my agreement if I don't.:) Glad to have you around tho whether we ever agree or not. OK--
1--I agree except that the series as always been promoted as an opportunity to test yourself against the best--as you yourself noted.
2--I honestly believe the numbers are higher and include some of the teams that aren't regular series participants. Whatever the numbers my priniciple objection is that PSP/NPPL owes their primary concern to their regular customers and however you want to justify it they aren't particularly concerned--and I'll tell you why in a minute. And no, I don't think potential future benefit is any reason to screw over your loyal customers.
3-- I suggested many moons ago that any realization of actual "Pro" paintball would change a number of things--the venerable Jerry Braun thread in Speak your Brains for one. You are incorrect in a couple of key places--the future benefit to players is to the elite among players and will have no possible benefit to the class of players that will continue to pay for the privilege of playing. And X-Ball in any truly professional format will not compete with NPPL style tournament play--at most it will scoop up some small percentage of the top players. And with the prospect of true Pro paintball on the horizon the PSP contingent is only moderately interested in what happens to all the other teams and tournament series. An initial 8 team pro league will without doubt take advantage of elite team name recognition and ownership of most of those elite teams resides in the control of PSP participants. You don't look to stay minor league when the prospect of the bigs is staring you in the face.
4--my point is it is completely in their interest--which is why it is happening. And, as I've said, in the long run I'm all for it and don't care who makes money off it or any of the other trivial details.
5--yes, it's wrong. Perhaps foolishly I'm of the opinion that when you contract to provide a particular service in a particular way on a particular schedule you should stick to it regardless and if you're going to inconvenience a large number of participants it's your responsibility to make it good, not just say sorry, you're screwed.
6--No question they would want to participate but if such a situation were a real life possibility chances are they would have to pass. Guys have real world jobs and responsibilities.
 

Mark

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Jul 9, 2001
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Baca..not outa the loop I knew the finals "were" to be Am's and Pro @ Disney, quite a few months ago actually (but now no longer) and yes I do see the change that has been made...I was avoiding the Xball / whatever format arguement.

As I already said I don't personally give a monkeys who I play (my flights etc all well booked) but when in previous years the spread of talent was evenish (even in sofar as the team classification was correct even if some Am A teams shouldn't be in the division, but as I don't see enough of theses teams I have to go along and listen with others arguements for the move up) this year the division (league of prelim games) is heavily weighted towards the Pro teams to gain maximum standings points (not NPPL points just points for the prelim side of things). So to also answer Tony I don't care if I play a Pro team, been there done that (though don't like travelling all that distance to play Shockwave who I can play against most months in the UK !!) so who ever comes out to play is good, the arguement I was trying to voice was that of the rescheduling is now not an even event. For the same reasons as a lot of people thought the Olympics was a non-event for the two times the USA and Russia didn't send teams to compete, the arguements for the lack of a balanced opposition will surface soon after the event. I for one will continue to play in the World Cup...doesn't mean I agree with all of the changes that appear each year.

As for the event of paintball (any format) @ Disney...gonna be interesting as to who trade wise will set up on the Disney site 'cos it takes the big guys more than a couple of days to put their stands up, so which site is gonna get the cream...however it turns out in that respect I bet the whole event will be @ Disney next year...hopefully with hefty discounts available for the paintballers staying in Disney hotels. Ever known Mickey to miss out on some extra $$'s ?
 

Dannefaerd

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Jul 8, 2001
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Thought that I would jump in here with a question ... there has been some talk on other boards (I was just looking - honest) that some of the AM teams cannot make WC this year - due to an in-ability to get time off work/school.

One major team being named as unavailable is Trauma.

Does anyone know if this is confirmed, or is it just scuttlebug?
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Dannefaerd

ALL scuttlebutt until teams either show or don't tho elsewhere on this board Big Dave (a Trauma dad) has confirmed it's a problem for them and how it'll work out hasn't been decided.
Tho some AMs are also apparently considering a one time bump up to Pro--talked to one such team recently so know it's actualy being considered.
My guess is most teams will grumble and complain but still show.
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
A bit more info

Seems the expectations regarding the number of participants for this year's Cup had an impact on the schedule changes (too? as well?) 'cus there weren't gonna be enough refs to handle the numbers.
Now one might have thought the way to deal with that was to limit the participation to a manageable level (like AC which was supposed to be 96 teams but grew to 110) but apparently the response was to put the players out instead.
One wonders how many fields and refs will be required to handle extraordinary numbers of teams, for 5-man in particular, if they are going to get thru the 8 game prelim schedule in a single day, nor does it answer the question of when 10-man gets to walk the fields--Wednesday apparently but the Ams will also be playing Wednesday--and will schedules be available before the captains meeting so teams can focus their limited time on the fields they know they will be playing? It would be a first.
 

Bobvannes

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Oct 6, 2002
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a little bit of truth

The Am tournament was moved for one reason - to accomodate the Pros. The whole year Jerry wanted GZ to play World Cup. That's why they reffed Chicago. He masked this by saying he wanted all the Pro teams to play WC.

The problem is then, who refs? Everyone had high hopes for the P.R.O. judges, but let's be honest - they are no where near ready. No one wants Novice teams reffing the Pros. Hell, no one wants novice teams reffing.

This is why Am teams like Trauma, Farside, Naughty Dogs and Nasty have been pressured all year to ref WC. Before Chicago even happened it became super obvious that all those teams would never give up playing to ref cup.

That's why the Am event was moved. To "allow" the Am teams to play and still ref the pros. Jerry just didn't expect the backlash against PSP teams - especiall GZ. Too many teams are going to be short bodies or won't be able to play at all.

This brings us back to the Naughty Dogs. The rumor is that Richmond and Jerry want to not let the Dogs play X-Ball now because they wouldn't ref. We'll see how that plays out.

Trauma and the Dogs will play. Farside says they won't but they've paid their entry fee so they are probably fibbing. Rumor is that Bushwackers and Dogs will try to enter as Pro, but there is a good chance the rules will be changed right before Cup so teams that do that won't be allowed to drop back down. That wouldn't hurt the Dogs but it would kill the 'Wackers.