Proposal for a summit about keeping markers legal

[DK1]

DK1

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
You'll NEVER get any of the manufacturers to reveal their code...... that is exactly what sets them apart from the competitors - the rest is just pretty design

Nick

They aren't revealing their code to everyone, it's being verified by a specific panel. And, if they won't reveal it, their markers won't be allowed. The tournaments have to grow a pair (pardon the phrase). I also wonder... the coding should not affect the trigger activation anyway. If you're dolling up the program to help the player, then you're probably illegal anyway. As far as simply running the marker, functional updates to the software would be no problem. Again, if we're here to stop cheating, and put the sport on a level playing field, then yeah, some of the tricks have to go, that's what I'm trying to stop in the first place.

Originally posted by DonLKSAB
Its far to easy to "hide" a cheat on a board.
You could have one software that will shop up in tests and that will be updateble by the refs and one that you actualy use when playing.
Everyone that can make cheatboards today can make a board run on dual softwares.

I dont think that standards will help here.
We need something you can check on and of field.
Without connecting something to the gun.

/DonLKSAB

That's why I suggest verifying both software and hardware. If the board only has one mem chip, and the reflash software is written to format it before being rewritten, "hiding" software won't help. It'll just be wiped. I'm not sure of all the intricacies of board design, but detecting hardware on a paintball specific board doesn't seem like much of a chore for a Palm powered interface.

Originally posted by evil.one
Again, had the agreement stuck to 13bps limit when electros were 'budding' things would have been easier. But as the others have pointed out, what you are asking now is unreasonable. And at the end of the day people will still have to be checked as you simply made it a little harder for folks to cheat.

I know the minimum trigger pull is a nice idea, bad to implement.
Same with lbs of pull. Not easy for events OR field owners. As a rule of thumb what is accepted at the top circuits filters down to local events and even walk on play.

How far you go really determines on what you are really trying to eliminate. The queing of dirty switch 'shots'? Turbo? well no one really does that anymore, they do the first. OR as originally discussed when the higher rates of fire came out was it greatly increased the chance of a double blinding. ASTM still cannot agree, unless a miracle happens this week, to finally eliminate full auto for good. If ROF is going to be controlled, its going to have to come from a Circuit. It is going to have to be very simple to comply. I highly doubt either circuit here is willing to take that next step. As far as the robots etc, I would bet all of pgi's revenue this year that only 10% of markers used in a us event are truly absolutely legal in the purest sense of the word. And those kids are shooting a mechanical gun and getting made fun of.

Agreed, the trigger pull would be difficult. However as far as the board and software verification, it's drastic, but I really don't see how it's unreasonable. We insist that people stop to chrono going on/off the field, and that can take some time, requiring tools and adjustment.

If it's simply worrying about the manufacturers that bothers you, then you have to consider the fact that any manufacturer not willing to do this would only be against it because they have questionable software.

As far as cost, this could be done with one extra guy at each field, or maybe even handled by the same crew. Cost would be equivalent to having another chrono station, or less depending on what chronos you are using.

It's involved, and strict, but it would sold the problem of cheating specific programs and boards.

Ian

 

[Lucky.One]

That is the point Ian, as of right now everyone has questionable software straight from the factory, and most factory teams are worse. We are spack dab in the middle of a full on arms race.

 

[DK1]

Originally posted by evil.one
That is the point Ian, as of right now everyone has questionable software straight from the factory, and most factory teams are worse. We are spack dab in the middle of a full on arms race.

So I guess it's too late to hope for self-actualized manufacturers to respect their reputations and stop making cheats? Oh wait, one of the major supporters of the PSP and NXL has been caught cheating repeatedly (on film even wasn't it?) and introduced the sport to "turbo-mode?"

*grumble*

I guess going back to my first post, there definately needs to be SOME organization with some authority make rules that they will enforce. And you're right, that probably means the series'. If the manufacturers have those people in their back pocket, I think that any hope of really catching most electronic cheating if futile.

Ian

just another barking dog with no teeth

 

[Lucky.One]

Don't get me wrong, I have a strong dislike for the way things are headed. As a member of one of the few who own the paint plant and make guns, the new consumption levels don't exactly hurt us. But I liken the situation to the co2 tanks that have killed people. In that case, two people died before we said enough is enough and we are going through considerable expense to make tanks non lethal. But the threat of double blinding doesn't make people tremble. We can't sell 'slow' guns. But we want to sell guns. So unfortunately I think we will have to wait until two poor saps get completely blinded before there is a real summit to address ROF. As far as what is cheating and what isn't, I believe its all semantics. If we as an industry and sport like the high ROF then let them have it. But front heavy goggles should be held on to your head by more than a strap clinging to the round part of your dome. In the US its worse, it will be some rich kid in his back yard with his super gun blowing out the eyes of someone in renegade play. So make every kid want to buy a slower but safer marker! haha, or have the leagues or insurance enforce a cap. -Pretty unlikely, or have the manufacturers who sit on the ASTM board hand down some stiff guidelines. -don't hold your breath.

 

[Jack Wood]

I cannot understand how cached shots (trigger pulls from during the previous cycle and released after that cycle has completed) can be consrued in any way as legal!
There is no way of determining whether they are legitimate pulls or, as evil.one put it, "Dirty" switch actuations. Surely this is one of the main problems of certain guns or boards being considered "Cheater". It certainly doesn't help the cause.
Should these type of boards be banned?

 

[DK1]

For multiple shots, I completely agree.

For a one shot buffer, to me, that is a tough call. I think that allowing ONE cached shot should be legal, simply because a person conceivably could pull the trigger again during a firing cycle. With out that one shot buffer, a player might get screwed out of an actual pull.

However, the shot buffer does appear to be what makes bounce possible. If a firing cycle takes 20ms, and the board does not buffer any shots during that time, then that equals a debounce period of 20ms. That's a long time for the switch to stabalize. Toss in the one shot buffer though, and you have to start with the debouncing procedure, and determining what is a "real" shot and what's noise.

I guess you'd have to decide if the unresponsiveness of an unbuffered trigger that only accepts pulls when the marker isn't cycling is worth the elimination of electronic bounce issues.

I'm sure I'm probably a bit off on how a lot of boards work, I'm more familiar with certain brands than others.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Jack Wood
I cannot understand how cached shots (trigger pulls from during the previous cycle and released after that cycle has completed) can be consrued in any way as legal!
There is no way of determining whether they are legitimate pulls or, as evil.one put it, "Dirty" switch actuations. Surely this is one of the main problems of certain guns or boards being considered "Cheater". It certainly doesn't help the cause.
Should these type of boards be banned?

It is hard to determine what is and isn't a legal pull. That's part of the problem.

But the rules very clearly (and simply) state 'one pull one shot', not 'one pull when the gun isn't cycling = one shot and no pulls when the gun is cycling are allowed to count as shots'...

So currently buffering a legitimate shot when the gun is cycling is legal, and ok in my opinion IF you can have some certainty it was a legal and proper shot, and not just bounce.

That's the issue.

I also think buffering one shot is ok, but anymore is a joke in most circumstances and just blatantly picking up extra shots from bounce.

Bill Mills made a very interesting board under the 'one pull one shot' which was to all intents and purposes just full auto. You just had to sit in your bunker and pull the trigger repeatedly to store the shots.. and then could release them in one go. It was legal under the definition ... it comes back to the people making the rules not really understanding what is possible within them.

 

[manike]

And all this comes at a time when FreeFlow was about to put 'ramping velocity' as a 'feature' in their new matrix boards!

Thank God he has changed his mind (after an outcry about the stupidity of it) and now won't be doing that.

At least for the boards on sale.

It seems like they will still have a mode to ramp BPS though. I bet no-one uses that illegally.......... oh, oh, oh look a pig just flew past my window!!!!!!!!

I'm starting to despair when people think that advertising their guns as having cheater modes as stock is a good thing...

 

[Lucky.One]

I come back to the idea for the premise of one shot per pull. When the eye doctors raised a fuss, the solution was if the gun shot once per pull the user had control and could not shoot someone when their goggles fell off. Storing a shot is not following this thinking.

Maybe I am working of the wrong premise here.

And when a gun has a debounce feature that recognizes dirty switch and stores shots, then it gets crazy. I don't know guys.
As in my last post, something/someone has to come up with stict black and white guidelines so the whole sport is safer. But your first order of business is to identify your goal. Ie full user control, true semi auto. I challenge that the more involved the process the harder it will be to implement. IE. Switch has to be x grams, spring tension must be xlbs, pull must be x distance, program must offer no help or memory... those guidelines may work if introduced at the ASTM level and adopted by manufacturers over a period of time... but for a circuit to adopt all such rules I believe is unrealistic. They simply do not have the means to properly enforce all of such rules, they cant even keep me from wearing too many layers

A circuit that wants things toned down, if it was up to me, would impose a cap.

As an industry I think we should take the more involved course of action. But what do I know.

 

[Wadidiz]

Intelligence and espionage

Two important weapons in our arsenal while we look for a way to develop some technical solutions.

We certainly can't catch everything this way but we definitely have some intelligence on some of the "Enigma Codes" and we'll catch and penalize the users of the offending guns.

Thankfully people like to talk and brag about things. All we have to do is compile and make use of this information. There are also "snitches" who know the cheats their opponents are using. We already have a few "moles" associated with us and some of what we've gathered already will be applied at our next tournament in addition to the other "countermeasures". (This is beginning to be fun.)

Fortunately also, players change teams sometimes and teams also change guns sometimes.

So, until we can get together and try to work out something in Toulouse (I hope) here's what we're going to do:

¤ trigger-test all markers used
¤ video record suspicious shooting
¤ random-test before, during and after games
¤ use a robot for objective, scientific testing
¤ apply harsh penalties automatically and consistently
¤ use knowledge acquired to find designer cheats

After a few suspensions maybe the fear of God will set in and we'll all revert to just playing paintball.

But then there are always those who enjoy the thrill of a challenge...

Steve