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stongle

Crazy Elk. Mooooooooooo
Aug 23, 2002
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How about we look at the flipside of the Argument DaveB (changed your name just for this thread???).

Many here would argue that it's your attitude that is the thorn in the side of Paintball in the UK, not vice versa. Go ahead and rip the arse out of the rec-ball scene if you wish, sure it's your current cash cow, have you given any thought to your future revenues?

The Punter Rec-ball scene in the UK is far from perfect, and in many ways a fool to itself. Your attitude suggests that you have no interest in return or repeat custom, you merely want to cover the operational costs and return a short term daily profit. Normally I would say fair enough, but this is a public forum and people have a right to an opinion.

Or is it perhaps that various rec-ball sites which promote purely the pseudo military game have started to become worried about the growth in the tournament game? Worried that your cash cows will realize that for the same cost, they can probably play double the amount of games, shoot double the amount of paint, get double the adrenaline rush for the same costs? Also isn’t the Rambo image now a bit passe? I mean look at the current press / public reaction to war and more specifically some paintball related incidents.

Punter Rec-ball days, feed and continue the growth of Paintball both Globally and in the UK. In a shrinking market (a basic economic fact is that this year people will have smaller disposable incomes thus hitting leisure activity spend), what are you gonna do to preserve your profits then? Put up Paint costs to 120 quid a case of blaze? Simply put you’ll price yourself out the market. Why not try to encourage repeat custom, it doesn’t take a marketing genius to work out the demographic you need to appeal to. Bring more people in, encourage them to shoot more paint (not be scared sh*tless that they could be bankrupted by going out there and having fun). Offer them a variety of scenario’s not just getting lost in the woods for half an hour not seeing anybody to shoot at for most of that period. You might start to see people say “Hey, best adrenaline rush I ever had, gotta do it again soon”. You might start to find your fluctuating gate receipts become a constant 300 people a day, thus increasing your profits as: 1) the fixed costs remain a constant (whether you got 50 or 300 on site). 2) Variable costs to a point are subject to economies of scale (i.e. diminishing proportional to volume).

Yes all the site owners have a right to make a profit, but your attitude that the Tournament game is a thorn in the side of UK Paintball is a bit old-hat and spanks more of racketeering. I’m not saying Super-Air is the only way to play and that rec is bad at all, the two sides of the game co-exist. But by not encouraging new and repeat customers, you begin to choke off the stream of incoming players thus shooting yourself in the foot in the long run. Don’t you think that more people playing would be beneficial not only to yourself but the whole-related industry as a whole? Perhaps SmartParts and LPS etc would see more marker and kit sales, thus enabling them to offer kit to all at cheaper prices, and getput more back into the sport?

This is not an overnight transition, and will take time effort, sacrifice and commitment from all (you also seem to forget the PR job a lot of tourny players do at rec-ball sites showing people kit and helping people in games etc). Hopefully Paintball as an industry and sport can benefit from all parties looking to the future.

My 20 pence worth anyway
 

TonyF

Swarm
Sep 22, 2002
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Essex
www.swarmpaintball.co.uk
Originally posted by DaveB
You are obviously completely miss informed, why is it that so call tourny players think they are something in Paintball.

How much difference to paintball would it make if tourny markers were banned tommorow and paintball as a sport went over night.

None, that's how much.

Tourny paintball makes up less than 1% of paintball, certainly in the UK.

Tourny paintball is a thorn in the side of paintball in the UK and until players realise that and stop thinking they are something they are not, it will continue to be.

As for the entrance fee covering costs, you really have no idea do you.

Lets see what happens then, lets continue to post silly paint prices on public forums, lets let members of the general public find out trade prices, lets reduce paint prices on sites and let's say goodbye to paintball altogether.

Tourny players and in a unique position where they are retail customers getting trade prices and so should count their blessings.


TonyF quote:



1. Why do you assume straight away that I am a Tourny player.
2. If tourny markers were banned tomorrow, how many companies that make the equipment we ALL use would stop importing to the UK, as it would no longer be cost effective!
Most of the people, I know, that play rec spend there money on "high end" touny equipment.
3. I think you are completly missinformed as there are is a larger number than 1% that play tourny paintball in the UK.
4. How can tourny paintball be a "thorn in the side", surely we are all in it for the same thing.
5. I know for a fact that the costs of the entrance fees on SOME sites DOES cover the running costs.
6. As for letting the general public know trade prices.....get real.
All anyone needs to do is visit the smartparts website, or in fact contact any paintball shop to get a realistic price on paint!
I play both Tourny and rec and have always loved both. I am happy playing either, as long as it's paintball!
When I play rec I know the cost before I play and am happy to pay it!
I feel you are naive to think that we cannot find out the prices for ourselves.
7. FYI most tourny players do not get there goods at "trade prices", they normally buy from retail outlets, and end up paying recommend retail prices!
Only the top few teams get good discounts...but they have had to work hard for it.
 

Gazz_KW

RIP - Keltic Warriors
Feb 28, 2002
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Leeds....eh up lad!!
Scottish rec ball scene

You guys are lucky....
Most of the Scottish rec ball sites charge around...wait for it...

£12- per 100..

Buying in bulk brings it down to..............

£10- per 100 (yup £200 per case)

Rec ball, expensive in Scotland..

(one of the reasons we come down there and have even more fun! :D )
 

stongle

Crazy Elk. Mooooooooooo
Aug 23, 2002
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hmmm, the more I think about this, the more I see room for combination and consolidation in the UK Paintball scene. If firms can only turn a profit by charging 150-500% mark-ups on Paint, obviously we face a situation of chronic oversupply of sites.

i.e. too many sites chasing too few customers.

I started doodleling on the math of the whole Paint thing, and if sites are charging in excess of 100 quid a case something is amiss.

Example:

Av 300 punters per week-end (for a busyish site), each shooting 600 balls @ 6p a ball (36 quid on paint for those mathematically challenged). Each pays £18 walk-on fee. That makes errrrrm, 54 quid each (averages chaps lets not get too excited, I know some people shoot less, whereas others go cyclic). That makes an approx. Revenue of cha-cha ching: £842,000 p.a. This doesn’t include pulling the pants down of companies on team building days.

Ok so each punter is shooting just under a third of a case of paint, so that means we require in the region of 4700 cases of paint per annum. 4700 cases at shall we say.....37:50, no lets be generous 40 quid a case bulk. Purchase price is equal to £189,000. Your revenue from paint sales alone (at 6p a ball) was: £564,000. A paint profit of £375,000 or 7,200 a week, this dosen’t include the walk-on fee.

I won’t go down the route of the other expenses cos’ they’re be shed loads, but c’mon after paint costs, that still leaves nearly 660 grand. If that leaves substantial problems in financing the site after your biggest variable cost, either increasing revenue or consolidation and cost cutting is a necessity. I know that this is simplistic model, and I don’t run a site, but as a whole we need to look in to the viability of the industry (specifically some sites), rather than blame certain sectors of the sport..

It occurrs to me that maybe we need to look carefully at whether sites are addressing the needs of ballers and in the end vote with our cash money and force the consolidation issue. If we vote with our feet you will see that sites will need to offer better services (toilets can often be horrific), offer realistic prices and provide a better all in experience to stay in business.

Following this path and we may begin to lend some legitimacy to the UK Paintball scene as a whole and hound out rogue or unprofessional sites. Not only this, but we will begin to see some proper business practices applied to running and maintaining the business. In this manner perhaps, Pball may in fact grow up and become what it seems to so want to be. Improve our infrastructure and we may just be able to put something like X-ball onto the UK map, and finally look at spanking the yanks (if not being a just a little more competitive).

These sound like Big Idea's, and yes to a degree they are, however by acting as a responsible, just and fair community we will gain some legitimacy and possibly broaden the appeal of the sport.

There are some sites out there that do provide a good service and are quality. However a small minority will continue to spoil it for the majority and until we all come together (rec and tournament) we will likely not be able to push the sport or recreation forward.
 
I thought most of this b*££*cks had gone by the wayside years ago.

Firstly, on the point regarding tourney players, most sites are happy to have an association with teams because they sell the sport in a positive way, help out with marshalling and a successful team gives the site owner a few bragging rights cos' he 'supports' it.

On the other side of the coin, 'fag packet' maths don't work.
your assuming most sites run seven days a week and have games in every day. Wrong.
Most sites have a busy period through summer, mostly at weekends, and slacken off through winter.
A lot of sites are restricted on opening to 28 days a year otherwise they have to apply for planning permission.

When doing your sums you also need to take into account marshals wages, transport, rent for land (whether your using it or not) wear and tear on all kit (and that can be very costly), paint, setting up in the first place and the major one - insurance (the more you make the more they want).

Nothings mutually exclusive in this sport and successful tournament play and its TV coverage brings customers to sites who help keep paint prices down so that tournament players etc. etc

Rant over;)

JJ
 

DaveB

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Feb 3, 2003
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And what TV coverage might that be?

Maybe Mission Paintball - NO
Maybe Crossfire - NO

Neither of these involved tournament paintball but brought lots of business for sites.

As for that rubbish about the 300 players a week.

Like I said before, lets let everyone know about tournament paint prices, then lets reduce the price of paint on sites so people can shoot lots more.

Then lets watch the sites go down one by one until there are none left.

Then lets see where tournament paintball is.

Don't think I am getting at tournament players, I play and it's great, all I am saying is that we shouldn't advertise the price of paint on competitions and understand where tournament players stand in the great scheme of things.

As for you being able to buy paint from shops at trade prices, that's just a discrace. Anyone who disagrees is deluding themselves. The only people who should sell paint to the public are sites (even on comps) is it going to take a drive by shooting by some nutter or harry and his mates playing in a public wood and shooting granny for people to sit up and listen. (now that would be publicity for paintball)

Looking for ward to the constructive reply's
 

Eric The Troll

now with the power of E
Sep 1, 2001
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Originally posted by TonyF
1. Why do you assume straight away that I am a Tourny player.

------------------------------

Most of the rec sites I've been to seem to charge £6x100 or a case for £100. Local site we have used once had a group of us turn up for a private evening game and hand over £4500 for paint for the evening. Thats why I started playing tourny...it's cheaper.

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TonyF
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Hmmmm, I wonder,

post edited

I've been playing for 13 years and the last time I paid full retail for anything (other than my eblade) I had a Golden Eagle STP in my hand.
 

L J

big big titties
Originally posted by TonyF
3. I think you are completly missinformed as there are is a larger number than 1% that play tourny paintball in the UK
i think you're misinformed!!!

think about it...basically all men have done paintball once in their life...so say thats 10 million people...obviously more though!!! the we have say 500 teams of 10 mans (dont know true figure but roughly) thats 5000 tourny paintballers which sounds about right, u divide 10 million by 5000 and u get 200, so thats 0.5% of the countries paintballers are tourny players!!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :cool: :cool: :p :p
 

DaveB

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Feb 3, 2003
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You would be lucky if there were 1000 tourny players in the uk. I doubt it.

But lets say there are 1000 tourny players in the uk. How many play each week, lets be generous and say 40 teams of 7 play per week (280 people)

Lets say there are 200 sites in the country with an average of 100 players per week, that's 20,000

so 20,000 paying customes with a realistic profit margin.

Now lets look at tournys
Entrance fee covers marshals (hopefully)

Average of £5 per box profit on paint x 280 players (£1400)

So paint sales to tourny players ammount to around £1400 profit per week on average throughout the country as oppose to 20,000 first time players.

Once again I say what would happen if tourny paintball ended tommorow?