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Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Well Baca, I see what you're saying, but I think what you think is the problem is actually the solution.

All the people you need to run a solid league that puts the sport first and paying for it a close second are already there. The problem is they're split across two leagues, and not all in the correct roles.

Take the right people, get them in the right roles, and get them working in the same league, and things will go very well.
Well, if it isn’t Little Mary Sunshine. What have you done with Chi-town?

How very zen of you.

Where have they been hiding? Seriously, the fact that there are capable people involved in both leagues is absolutely zero guarantee. As is the incredible notion that some unified league gimmick will necessarily mean the right peeps end up in the right places and everyone will live happily ever after. Personally, given what I currently hear, I am highly skeptical. But that’s just me.

Piece of cake. What was I thinking?
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
I don't see where thats a contrary opinion to be honest Senor Loco. A can of worms with 'DO NOT OPEN' written clearly in English and Spanish has been opened for no good reason, and the only way out of this mess is via the guillotine in my opinion, otherwise the NPPL's last stop will be 'Sham-town'.
I'll tell you something to be really appalled about when I see you in Orlando. Not even half the story is on here.
Allow me to clarify, my humongous bundle of chocolate love. It seems everyone--who has commented on it anyway--is in favor of this unspecified unified Utopia. I'm not. It may be inevitable but there is absolutely zero reason in my opinion to expect the result to save or even prolong tourney paintball. How's that? :)
 

Robbo

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Hey, kids, guess what? I’m gonna take a contrary position, quel surprise!

Can we all agree that KC was a debacle? Can we agree on the reasons why? Maybe, maybe not. At one level KC (at least the Joy part) was just another screw-up by the refs. But was that all it was? I’d say no. I’d say the institution (the owner/promoter) is really responsible because real problems are addressed and it seems apparent to me, perhaps uncharitably, that the institution doesn’t really assign a particularly high priority to on field issues. The NPPL has always been more concerned with image and its other goals than with the actual on field competition and in that regard the evidence says nothing has changed.

Bottom line, who is responsible for the officials and the officiating and the enforcement of the rules? The buck’s gotta stop somewhere and it’s clear it doesn’t stop with the on field ultimate. And if it hasn’t been addressed yet why should anyone assume it will be this time? What is critical mass on treating the game you’re supposed to be promoting with respect and integrity? Or is that too harsh and is everyone just incompetent?

7-man is dangerously close to professional wrestling status when the rules aren’t really the rules and teams get to tell the league what they will and won’t do in the course of the competition. While I’ve nothing against either the Men or Impact the combined action of all the participants, including the refs, league officials and teams was appalling and made a mockery of paintball as legitimate sport.

Okay, here’s where I’m moving into contrary territory–or maybe I’ve already crossed that line–and it is with regard the super-secret might be coming unified league (or whatever it really is). While I can understand the idea that such a move might be necessary in the current environment I can’t for the life of me see why it’s the best answer particularly if some of the same peeps who currently treat paintball as sport with such disdain are gonna be in charge.
Maybe it’s just me but what’s the point of running top tier world class pro paintball events if your principle commitment isn’t to the game? It might as well be badminton or croquet because the game itself doesn’t matter when it’s only a vehicle to some other purpose. I’m not suggesting there shouldn’t be consideration for a viable financial plan and model but the game can’t be a side issue. And if the future new unified league isn’t about promoting paintball as sport with respect and integrity everything else it’s trying to accomplish will fail too for the simple reason that who will care about some fringe sport if the people responsible for it don’t?
Baca, I agree 100% with the first part of your post in assigning the major part of any blame firmly at the feet of the organizers, IF it unfolded in the way it's been reported.

As for the second part of your post?
I don't wanna repeat myself too much in restating part of what I said to Chris in that, 'Is what we are doing now, the right way to go about it'?

I think we both know the answer to that one.
And so, assuming a major part of any new regime will host the individuals responsible for our present state of affairs, it's fair to ask, 'so what's gonna change'?
My answer would have to center on this being a new initiative and with anything new, it increases the opportunity for change.
If the new combine is set up, they will all realize that whatever model they have been aligned with in the past hasn't worked, it is self-evident things have got to change and so this should provide the necessary springboard.

Of course you will now counter with, 'Well Pete, that's all well and good but what gives you the idea they know what to do considering they have already proved they had little clue before'?

I think this is where a dominant personality comes into play, and Paul, me and you both know who that has to be, and necessarily so.
The industry is now faced with an acute contraction problem and if faced with the prospect of going it alone in terms of league promotion as against aligning themselves with a new kid on the block, I think financial pressures will tend to nudge these guys towards alignment.

I could well be wrong in thinking these guys aren't soo entrenched and they elect to resist commonsense and only time will tell.

My points can be distilled as such:-

a) The industry needs to change tack.
b) Integration makes financial sense in terms of team and vendor presence
c) Integration provides an opportunity for change
d) We have a guy who is willing to talk and has a proven track record of good business decisions and is perceived as a relative neutral
e) The timing is excellent considering we are nearing end of year for both leagues


I realize cynicism has got you by the bollocks mate and I can't blame you for being that way inclined because, like you, I have been a cynic for way too long but there comes a point when you just have to put all the cr@p on the back burner and go for it, mainly because there is no other option.
 

Chicago

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Of course there aren't any guarantees Baca...

I'm also curious why no one thinks that having two leagues is itself part of the problem. Sure, there may be some benefits to the players to having a choice and leagues competing against each other, but there may be some less obvious problems with keeping tournament paintball going when there isn't a unified front, especially when it comes to getting the out-of-industry sponsors. And it's that out of industry money that's the real difference between where we are now and advancing.

Now, that's not to say I'm sure that whoever Pete is building up here is the right choice, as I have no idea who it is. If I were to pick a national league dream team, I know exactly who I'd staff every position with except for the position of 'fearless leader'. I keep coming up empty on that position. If we've got a good leader, and they grab teh right staff, we'll be in very good shape.
 

Robbo

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Correct me if I'm wrong but.....didn't Billy Gardner have to dip into his pocket to the tune of $1.6 mill for that last TV endeavour ($800 large as his initial input plus another $800 large that was originally supposed to come from advertising but never happened and therefore he had to come up with it) and hasn't Dave YB stumped up nearly half a mill in keeping the PSP afloat?

Hasn't the fact Smart Parts laid off 28 people the other month suggested they may not be too amenable to stumping up any more cash for keeping the PSP/NXL ship afloat?
Hasn't the fact they have also allegedly had a 30% cut in their front end sales also suggested there is even less reason to come up with any more cash?

The only reason that league is still alive is because of Dave YB and the Gardners....if I was faced with the prospect of having to come up with any more 'survival money' then I would need to be assured of one of two things :-

a) An impending TV deal (ha ha)
b) The future financial viability of the league (ha f'kin ha)

And what with teams like Bobby's and LTZ having it on their toes (as well as a few others now rumoured to be pulling out), things don't look all that encouraging for the future.

The PSP loses money, who is gonna bail them out in 08, you, maybe Baca?
I don't think so somehow, you can intellectualize all you like but the bottom line is always gonna be cash, you ignore that, you ignore common sense.

We are entering a 'force majeur' phase and if some people don't make the right decisions, then financial blood will spill.
We need a combined league guys !
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
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Now, that's not to say I'm sure that whoever Pete is building up here is the right choice, as I have no idea who it is. If I were to pick a national league dream team, I know exactly who I'd staff every position with except for the position of 'fearless leader'. I keep coming up empty on that position. If we've got a good leader, and they grab teh right staff, we'll be in very good shape.
Chicago, well I ain't exactly made a secret of his identity but I think Bruce Freidman would supply the necessary credentials for industry acceptance.
He has the breadth of vision, the track record and is viewed as a relative neutral.
I think though, I should be the spiritual leader :)
I am desperately trying to think of a postion for you (and Paul) in this new order..when I decide, I will let you know :)
 

Chicago

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Once again it doesn't look like we're quite talking about the same thing.

Bruce is great, and would be a good choice to lead the organization. But that's at the owner/chairman level. I'm looking more at your top executive level, one step down from that. You still need someone between him and your top-level staff to be the day-to-day leader as I'm sure he's not going to abandon everything else he's doing to run the paintball thing full time. And I just don't know who that person is.
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
1--Baca, I agree 100% with the first part of your post in assigning the major part of any blame firmly at the feet of the organizers, IF it unfolded in the way it's been reported.

2--As for the second part of your post?
I don't wanna repeat myself too much in restating part of what I said to Chris in that, 'Is what we are doing now, the right way to go about it'?

I think we both know the answer to that one.

3--And so, assuming a major part of any new regime will host the individuals responsible for our present state of affairs, it's fair to ask, 'so what's gonna change'?
My answer would have to center on this being a new initiative and with anything new, it increases the opportunity for change.
If the new combine is set up, they will all realize that whatever model they have been aligned with in the past hasn't worked, it is self-evident things have got to change and so this should provide the necessary springboard.

4--Of course you will now counter with, 'Well Pete, that's all well and good but what gives you the idea they know what to do considering they have already proved they had little clue before'?

5--I think this is where a dominant personality comes into play, and Paul, me and you both know who that has to be, and necessarily so.
The industry is now faced with an acute contraction problem and if faced with the prospect of going it alone in terms of league promotion as against aligning themselves with a new kid on the block, I think financial pressures will tend to nudge these guys towards alignment.

I could well be wrong in thinking these guys aren't soo entrenched and they elect to resist commonsense and only time will tell.

6--My points can be distilled as such:-

a) The industry needs to change tack.
b) Integration makes financial sense in terms of team and vendor presence
c) Integration provides an opportunity for change
d) We have a guy who is willing to talk and has a proven track record of good business decisions and is perceived as a relative neutral
e) The timing is excellent considering we are nearing end of year for both leagues

7--I realize cynicism has got you by the bollocks mate and I can't blame you for being that way inclined because, like you, I have been a cynic for way too long but there comes a point when you just have to put all the cr@p on the back burner and go for it, mainly because there is no other option.
Pete, you call it cynicism, I called it realism. :) Sorry but I's gonna lay the bullet points on ya--purely for the sake of clarity since I tend to prattle on once I get started.

1. Agreed. I'm assuming things not proven at this point but since those things are consistent with past performance and align with what we do know ... you get the idea.

2. I'm gonna parse this one like a Jesuit just for a minute as it depends on what we mean by "right". I think some things are being done in fair approximation to right on the details but if by right we mean successful and sustainable then plainly something needs to change 'cus I don't believe things can continue as they have gone before.

3. Emminently reasonable but alas, to date reason has had damned little to do with paintball. :D Nor do I disagree with you but I think there is a more important question to be asked.

4. The one you rhetorically pose isn't bad and one I would likely ask if you hadn't beaten me to it but not the one I have in mind. My question is: What are the principle goals of the unified league in running Pro paintball tournaments? The answer might seem self-evident but I don't think it is. I also think I can make the case that even in the instances where we would agree those in charge love the game and want to see it succeed the actual on field competition wasn't always the first priority and that in and of itself was a contributing factor to some of the past failures. It is all well and good for Chi-town to have the right functionaries in the right positions but what matters are the marching orders they are given. An outsider without the boy's club baggage is certainly in a position to effect some changes but I have no idea at all what he wants from paintball.

5. Necessity may very well push this into happening but then paintball really is at the mercy of one man's vision and while you may be comfortable with that from what you know all I know is what's happened so far, what I've heard about the original longer term plans when NPPL was bought out and what I've seen so far and cynical or not, I am somewhat less than inspired.

6. and beyond the where does he plan to take the game question we are left with a host of "practical" issues like rules, formats, personnel, etc. that would all need to be resolved between Commander's Cup and HB. Even with the best of intentions this isn't going to be easy.

7. I tell cynicism not on the first date, I'm an old-fashioned kinda guy, unless of course cynicism is a curvy redhead ...

Regardless of my opinion I'm sure the Wheels of Progrees will continue to grind. :)