Millennium X-Ball - Player input WANTED!!!!

[manike]

Originally posted by Wadidiz
You may be right, Manike, but PSP/NPPL have played two different formats for years, with a 5-player and 10-player tournament rolled into one (albeit they play the same format throughout each separate event, although once in the semis it is almost like a separate event because you only play your own class). Two formats at the same tournament was one very attractive feature to me because it offered variety--because 5-player and 10-player are so dissimilar.

And I don't think two different "phases" of a tournament means at all doing both half-heartedly. How do you get that?

The tourney format would be the same for all, just more challenging because of the variety.

No, I must say I don't buy your reasoning. I think it is just thinking within the same square (and I mean no disrespect). It's already hard enough for many teams to make most of the 6 Mill events. I still think this would add to the attractiveness and put X-ball within reach of Euros.

Steve

That is NOT two different formats in one competition. It's a 5 man competition of the same format seperate to a 10 man competition of the same format at the SAME event. It's completely diffferent to the change of format half way through one competition like you are proposing.

If you change the format in the same competition who is to say the team that wins the second format and the competition was actually the best? It may be that another team was better at the final format but didn't make it in because they weren't as good at the first format.

It's weak half ass way of trying to show two different formats rather than sticking to one.

You could have both formats at the same event like they do with the 5 and 10 man at NPPL. But to mix them is just crappy to me.

It's like running a 5 man event for the prelims and then running a 10 man event for the finals. That will not give you the best 10 man team as the over all winners, nor will it give you the best 5 man team as the overall winners. It's a mix and to me dilutes both genres. It's a half hearted set of results neither of which would be genuine winners of the event in my mind.

Why would it be more challenging because of variety? Isn't it more challenging to become masters of one set format rather than decent in two (which is what I think would be needed to win the event you describe).

 

[Alan Smith]

A brighter perspective

For me the real test is going to be in the playing. The Americans put X-ball through a testing phase and we need to do the same. I hope X-ball is great and if it is, it will be up to the national teams and promoters to get their arses out there to attract the external sponsors and TV interest. Don't lose sight of what we have; the best tournament series in the world. Containing teams that have gone from having no hope against the Americans to actually taking them on and winning. A vast majority of our Pro's have beaten yank teams this season. I have no doubt that if the tournament scene had continued as it was, Euro teams would have grown in strength and toppled the US dominance. I am also sure US teams in the form of Dynasty and other Super 7 teams will come over to Europe this year. If a viable way is found to play X-ball I am happy, If I can play 7 man against the top Euro's and teams like Dynasty I'm happy. Oh and if your worried about the best teams being locked away in NXL, then me too but think also of this: they are locked away not capable of playing other events they are in fact isolated. If your worried because they will develop faster than us then think of this; they became great by playing each other in the NPPL why would we not be capable of doing the same over here through our own competitive spirit and endeavour. Lastly it seams to me if we want an X-ball league we have to earn it over the next year.

Just my, slightly more positive view point.

 

[Wadidiz]

Manike,

I think you might be right. I wanted to give it a shot, maybe it would be a bit too strange.

Here's another thought that MIGHT be better: Change the whole shooting match to X-ball.

NXL has a point: 2-flag is not as exciting as center-flag. I've always pushed for center-flag. Now that we've gone to concept fields I even think that 10-player should change to center flag.

It's not likely to happen, but I think that the best of all possible worlds, a good compromise if you will, would be 7-player X-ball with center flag. Have multiple-field X-ball tournaments as the world standard.

Maybe this is also half-baked but the main point here is: I can't see two parallel tournaments at the same event and the Nations' Cup concept is IMO too complicated, even though I think nations represented would be better than standard teams from a publicity viewpoint.

The main thing here IMO is to try to modify the standard of Millennium to as close to X-ball as possible because that format and style of playing is the future and we here in Euroland need to get our hands on this as quickly as possible for obvious reasons.

Steve

 

[Piper]

Originally posted by goose
Not to beat the whole topic to death - god knows it's being done in other threads - but it would be interesting to hear peoples opinions on the new format (Nations Cup style) in regards to certain points.

With the new adoption of National teams - the idea is that there will not be more than 3 players allowed from any one team Millennium pro team to play for the X-Ball team. Along with a "small" added cost for the "right" to play Nations Cup X-Ball.

1.) Do people actually think that this will make us competitive??
2.) Who thinks that a team with a "potentially" changing roster (who knows if the same players will make all the events) is a good idea??
3.) Does anyone NOT-think that this will end up in the 4 teams going to Orlando having their asses handed to them - especially when they have to play against X-Ball teams that have played it seriously??
4.) Are there any serious players who would play X-Ball and run the risk of injuring themselves and thereby taking themselves out of the semis or finals??
5.) Are there any serious players who would want to stick around until "god-knows-when" then night before the semis just to play an X-Ball game, when players from the opposing teams will be back in the hotel resting for the next day??

and lastly....

6.) Is there anyone in their right mind who pay for this "Honour"??

Is it just me or does all of this sound a little f@cked up?

Who thinks that the Millennium should drop the whole idea and worry about running normal tournaments instead of trying to do things half-assed?

Polite responses only please

goose

Guys
The above is the original post. Please try and keep it on track. Goose makes some excellent points and this really is not about how the event should be run.
So please lets have your input into the original post.

Thanks.
Now let the debate begin!


Piper

 

[Wadidiz]

Sorry 'bout that.

To answer Goose's main question: I don't think the proposal on the table is the way to fly and Goose's questions clarify why.

This has got me thinking about a serious alternative but I need some time to think it through. I have a germ of an idea coming up and after I've considered it a while I MIGHT post it in a new thread. (Fair warning )

Steve

 

[Magued]

Ok here we go..

People needs to understand a few things.
Facts - The Us teams CHOOSED to basicilly say " we wont play in Europe anymore" They didnt need to do that, but they did.
In my eyes that was a slap in the face to the entire European paintball community. We at the board called Richmond and begged them to lift the US X-ball EMBARGO on the millennium series, but that wasnt helping.

Now people in Europe still wanted to play X-Ball so we tried to meet that desire in any kind of way.
But first let me run down some costs and facts for you out there that dont have a clue.

Last year at Joy masters we made after costs and entre fees
a result at + 8 000 Euros. Plus paintballs that the sponsors give to the promotors ( aprox 20 000 Euros worth )

The 8 000 Euros profit was mainly beacuse we had a warm weekend and we managed to sell drinks and beer for 10 000 Euros.

Now when the NXL teams is forbidden to play at Joy Masters
I could calculate that compared to last year I would lose something like 2-4 Us teams. If we also had a exclusive EXL European X-ball league then I could take away 8 European Pro teams. That would make a total of at least 10 pro teams this year.

A pro teams entre fee is 1250 Euros - price money aprox 250 Euros/team makes it a loss off 1000x 10 Euros = 10 000 Euros
That would set us on a stunning -2000 Euro loss ( if we have a warm weekend again )
So our aproach was this, if this is the economic base we have to work on then... naaah I rather do something else.
Portugal was even worse as Pedro had something like 9 Us teams last year and 7 of them is now forbidden to play hes event.

So as much as we liked to have the EXL, who was going to pay for it? And witch events where going to pay for your rights to play x-ball?Im ready to spend money on paintball, but I have to have that money to spend!

Now the entire Nations cup idea was mine. I saw it as away to introduce X-ball to Europe and in some kind of way prepare the grounds here in Europe if we in the future could find a way to finance it.

The proposal was this. Instead of having Joy Division vs TonTon we would have Sweden vs France. As the captain of Sweden I could choose anyone of the Swedes playing the event.
I could take the entire Joy Team or mix it up as I have done on previous Nations cup with players from all Swedish teams attending the event.
This would give all the Swedish players a chance to play x-ball and hopefully they would consider it a honour to play in The yellow and blue jersey.

Furhermore I saw a packed grand stand cheering there national team when for example the English team is playing Germany at Crystal palace, Or France vs Denmark in Toulose etc etc.
I also belive that media would be 1000% more willing to take a look at a game in Crystal Palace when England is playing Germany instead of the Nexxus vs Millenium.

Having the X-ball games right after the last afternoon game would also garantee a amount of spectators that is vital for the overall impression Paintball would leave the media people we could get to the events.

But this is only a proposal to the Millennium teams, If you guys dont want it, fine with me. I wont bother either, and if you want a 100% NXL copy here in Europe. No problem. Just find someone that are willing to pay you the costs beacuse im not. And find at least 3-4 new promoters that are willing to house it. And if you do Joy Division would love to participate!!

As for Goose post

1. I think it would introduce X-ball to the European players and help us understand the game. That would also help us practice stuff that is vital for the x-ball game.
2. Well then more players would be able to try it, I think that is positive.
3. We didnt get anything near our asses kicked in Pittsburgh, and if we did we still better of then not playing at all.
4. If your not proud about playing in your national team dont bother!
5. I belive that if Sweden is playing Denmark in Gärdet this summer at 17.00 you wont find a single spot to sitt on.
6. See answer number 4. I cant imagine a single Swedish player that would say no. As a matter of fact in Portugal we played the Nations cup before the Semifinals and Alex had a arm injury. Nothing could stop him to play. ( Jerry tried )

We will only have 8 National teams the first years beacuse considering the logistic.

So all this have to be considered.

1. Are your national team able to put in a 1/8 of the cost to have x-balls facillitys transported and managed during the year?
2. Do your national team have enough players at EVERY event to field a X-ball team? ( at least 10 players )
3. Is the teams from your nation playing the Millenium series ready to back the national team with players no matter if they are playing finals or whatever?

So basicilly if you dont want to you dont have to....


Magued

PS. Exuse my English, Im Egyptian you know..

 

[goose]

Maggot my man...

...good response and it more than explains your points. Please don't get me wrong, I hope that the whole thing works out, it is just that whenyou are talking about trying to run a nations cup tournament over the whole year then things get a little trickier...

Answering to some of the things you brought up...

I understand the the promoters point of view, y'all need to make money - and don't for a second think I was saying that you should lose money just to run X-Ball - never did that - I was just wondering if this is the best solution.

I think that the whole thing hinges on being able to field a team - and this is where I see problems. First as you said there needs to be a group of 10-12 players that will be at each millennium event to make this work properly. That means players must commit for the whole season just to play 1 game 1 tournament of X-Ball.

2nd - this also means that there must be at least 4 teams from each country in order to make up the national team (Niall told me today that there would be max. 3 players from each team allowed). Speaking for my adopted country - this then cuts Denmark out of X-Ball.

3rd - the subject of injuries does begin to come into play. Sure Alex played hurt - and I know many players who would play hurt and/or play X-Ball knowing they could get hurt. Don't forget we are talking about a whole new level of fitness required, and after a long day of MS prelim games then the chances of getting hurt are even higher - especially if a player plays his normal games in the morning and then has to play X-Ball at 6 or 7 o'clock at night.

I for one would be extremely pissed at one of my teammates if he went to play X-Ball and seriously hurt himself, thereby taking himself out of the rest of the tournament. He has just let down 6 other guys who paid lots of money to play Millennium - not watch him play X. I am sure that if this ever happened then the team would think twice about lending players out at the next event.

4th - In regards to team performance - I hate to disagree, but I find it hard to imagine that a team who plays 7 X-Ball games as a "sideshow" event will do very well against teams practicing and playing X-Ball as their #1 sport throughout the year. Sure you guys did great at the IAO - but you where on equal footing with everyone else - no one had really tried it before and no one new what to expect. I think the world cup will be a different story - I could be wrong - I hope I am wrong - but sports common sense tells me otherwise.

Anyway that's it for now, as I said I hope that X can find a way to work - and prosper. I hope that come October I get an big shout out from you in Orlando after Sweden has won the X-Ball championship (that's if DK doesn't beat you to it). But now I also hope to wake up one day a millionaire and living on some island in the Carribean, but I am still dirt poor and does Copenhagen look like Jamaica to you?

goose

P.S. Your English is just fine - better than most peoples Swedish - but you are still short & ugly though...

 

[Robbo]

I think after looking at a lot of these posts in this thread, one thing becomes increasingly clear and this is not meant as a criticism, it is an observation, the whole point of Europe adopting X-Ball is not being understood by anyone here.

It is not meant to draw crowds, if it does then great, it was not meant to appease certain parochial interests, it was not meant to be free for promoters, it was not meant to be easy for teams to not only invest in money-wise but also to gear up their entire season to X-Ball.......
The reason for adopting X-Ball in Europe was to try to take advantage of an opportunity for both teams and promoters to jump on a bandwagon that is being heavily invested in by others in the US and when it goes off big time in the US, we would get a part of that action !!!!!!!!
We were offered by Richmond a fully integrated World X-Ball league, this idea was hammered out in Orlando by Sergei, Laurent and Myself with Richmond.
I didn’t really believe this proposal was going to be accepted by the US X-Ball contingent, the likes of Jerry Braun, Renick, YB and the Gardners, but it was, my jaw hit the floor when I talked to Richmond afterwards and he told me they had allowed Europe in on a near equal footing as far as the teams were concerned.

Obviously we (the teams and promoters) had to be pretty confident regarding the potential earning streams stateside that were being suggested.
Now Laurent, Nial and myself all knew what was possible and I had certainly done my bit in trying to let everybody know just how important it was to get on this X-Ball bandwagon.

Now I don't give two ****s about this Nations cup, it means nothing in X-Ball terms because it is non-integratable, you cannot play nations against club sides and therefore this next year is absolutely pointless.
And in this coming year, what do you think the Yanks are gonna be doing?
They are gonna be pulling so far ahead of us it will be untrue, now whilst some promoters over here will still be able to play pick up with any X-Ball TV monies that will inevitably come calling once if it gets taken up over there; the teams, well, we'll be so far behind we would have no chance.
This is why it was sooo important for us to keep the Russians involved because we could have used their professionalism and skill base to learn from as our X-Ball season progressed.
Imagine what the other teams could have learned from them in a year of playing them head to head, time and again. This would have propelled us Euros headlong up to somewhere near the Yanks at least.
But no, we are all now talking about how the Nation’s cup will unfold and this and that.......
We should never have been put in this position, it's small time thinking at its worst and all I can see is other people buying into that flawed philosophy.
People can talk about the Nations cup all they like but it all means nothing in the end as the X-ball league in the US will forge ahead of us not even bothering to look over their shoulders.
What a frikkin tragedy !!!

 

[rancid]

Pete, in your opinion, why are the Euro promoters making this judgement: cos they are shortsighted or cos, at this moment, there is nothing to see?

Excuse me cos I've been away, but is the American X-ball deal all signed, sealed and delivered with the TV and outside sponsorship?

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by rancid
Pete, in your opinion, why are the Euro promoters making this judgement: cos they are shortsighted or cos, at this moment, there is nothing to see?
Excuse me cos I've been away, but is the American X-ball deal all signed, sealed and delivered with the TV and outside sponsorship?

Matt, hmmm, ok, first off the Americans are sitting on a gold mine at the moment if what I have been told is to be believed.
I can say this much, it all started with Billy and Adam's (Billy and Adam Gardner of Smart Parts / All Americans) involvement with a certain party in Hollywood, this interest expanded to envelop the other members of the PSP and there was a meeting in LA a few weeks back that had all those interested parties discussing the televisation and promotion of paintball.
In my opinion at least, there is some tie up involving X-Ball that will mean substantial funds will be made available to all those involved including us Euros if we had been part of the World Series.
I am not being secretive or trying to look clever in what I am about to say but I have been asked to keep certain aspects of this to myself but I am convinced this money is gonna turn up some time soon.
I am not the only European to know about these details !!!!!!
As for why the European promoters do not feel as tho they can invest in it, well, some promoters, say people like Magued, Pedro and Manfred do not earn huge sums from their tournament, in fact, they earn next to f##k all.
So it would be hard for them to make any real investment.
Now as far as I know, X-Ball in Europe, well at least the licence, is owned by Laurent, Steve Baldwin and Nial, it may not be formalised yet in the form of contracts (tho it may be by now) but this was certainly the idea.
So, this leaves two big money making tournaments, Toulouse and Campaign and these just happen to be run by Laurent and Nial.
So I suppose what I am trying to say is this, the investment required to launch X-ball should have come from them as it is these very same people who will benefit from X-Ball kicking off in the US.
Now for Nial and Laurent, as long as they keep the X-Ball flag flying, albeit in the form of some worthless Nations Cup, come the end of the year when the franchises for X-ball were going to be allocated to the Euro teams and after the US had gone to the land of TV, it puts them in a strong position to demand what they liked from the teams who might be interested.
After all, if ya got US TV or any other networks knocking on your door for the Euro TV rights, how much do you think that pushes up the value of a X-Ball franchise over here?
I would like to think the reasons for not doing it right are short sightedness, lack of confidence in the product, lack of commitment and so on and perhaps it is just that but the most influential people involved, the likes of Nial, Laurent and Steve are all well aware of what's happening stateside... I'll let you figure it out
Pete