Totally agree mate - I waffled on about something similar in a blog post on the old p8ntballer forum, which I've resurrected here if you haven't seen it:
http://www.hqpb.org/552/blog-tournament-paintball-is-rubbish/
^^^^what he said!
Is paintball dying ???
- Thread starter Richard Merghani
- Start date
http://www.hqpb.org/552/blog-tournament-paintball-is-rubbish/
I've looked on their site, maybe im missing something.
4 x 15 minute games = 60 minutes play.
Given you have 12 or so players and 5 play at a time, thats about 25 minutes play time a player.
masters = 8-10 games (I know max game time is 15 minutes, but lets call the average game 5 minutes)
You have 5 guys for this normally, so they always play.
thats 40-50 minutes gametime per player?
4 x 15 minute games = 60 minutes play.
Given you have 12 or so players and 5 play at a time, thats about 25 minutes play time a player.
masters = 8-10 games (I know max game time is 15 minutes, but lets call the average game 5 minutes)
You have 5 guys for this normally, so they always play.
thats 40-50 minutes gametime per player?
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In a tournie, if you get shot out on the break, you play for 1 second for that game. In formula 5, if you get shot out, you are back on the field in 20 seconds.
Honestly, some games, I get 12 + kills or more before I get shot out. I then run back to the pit, get paint and air, and queue up to go straight back out again. Its SO much value for money!
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arent people missing a bit of a point here....its a tournament...not a day out with the family... a tournament is a competition... i dont go there to get hours n hours of play time, i will go to a rec site if i want to do that, i go to a tournament for the thrill and andrenalin rush from playing a sport i love at a competition level with a view to trying to win the games, win some nice prizes and to prove to myself that i can do it. that said I agree the prizes could be better.
That 2 minute buzz is completely different, for me at least, than a full days rec ball. Dont get me wrong i love rec ball and play as often as i can its a great day out, but i never compare it, to say which is better, to tournament pb as i play tourney for a completely different reason
That 2 minute buzz is completely different, for me at least, than a full days rec ball. Dont get me wrong i love rec ball and play as often as i can its a great day out, but i never compare it, to say which is better, to tournament pb as i play tourney for a completely different reason
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alot of you guys have been saying that tournie ball has come too far away from it,s roots in the woods.
now would using bunkers shaped like real objects make a difference something like this
http://www.sunjoygz.com/up_pic/201072912373624410.jpg
would love too see a formula 5 field looking more like say an urban area with tanks and suv`s builds etc,would this appeal too the kids and be that link from woods too sup air
now would using bunkers shaped like real objects make a difference something like this
http://www.sunjoygz.com/up_pic/201072912373624410.jpg
would love too see a formula 5 field looking more like say an urban area with tanks and suv`s builds etc,would this appeal too the kids and be that link from woods too sup air
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I would like to thank everyone for putting there thoughts into this and posting them up BUT none of you have come up with WHY Tournament Paintball is dead or dyeing on it's feet !! I stand by what I said , Greedy companies not giving value for money and sponsoring the " pro " teams for what end ??? there money is made at the grass roots level NOT at the top end !! So why pump money into those teams ?? I know I will hear people saying these " pro " teams have worked for it etc etc BUT there are more deserving teams out there ? There MUST be ??
The problem is SIMPLE we all want a deal be it a sponsership deal, a free entry or of a £5 off a box of paint. This is because deep down most of us are too greedy. When i started paint was more expensive & tournament entries were more expensive so the industry made more money & put on more events.
It used to cost me between £100-£150 for a tournie on a sunday & training was £40-60, my X-mag cost £1600 Goggles were £80... in short it cost me more to play 10 years ago than now, roughly twice as much. So if we are all spending half as much then the profit margins are down so it is not viable to run the same tournies we used to enter.
If you lot want to dig deep, pay £50 a box for paint again, pay list price for your kit, pay £60-£100 a man to enter a tournie I can guarantee you that there would be brilliant venues & venders in every county.
yeah thats how to help a sport make it more expensive.... if you want a paintball to grow then the "industry" needs an incentive... i agree that more profits is that incentive and with increased revenue the industry will pump it back into the sport to make it better. Now the "industry" could just increase the price of everything to get their profits in but i wouldnt say this is a long term solution as lets face it gear isnt exactly cheap, neither is playing. Increasing costs to the player will make starting up nearly impossible for those not lucky enough to have a couple of grand spare and sustainable play would take a hit as those that do not have £200-£300 disposable income will play less, i.e. this would simply lower the customer base meaning that although the proffit per product is high the volume sold has decreased meaning no real change to the industry but a massive change to the sport as no-one can afford to play anymore....
The key to increasing the profit is simply mass production... the more you produce of something the cheaper it is to produce, therefore you can charge less for it but still make profit by volume sold. In order to require mass production you need a strong customer base that you can shift the product to... to get a mass customer base you need to build a product that more and more people want at a price they want to pay...
i.e. in summary cheap paint and cheap events = more oportunity for new customers and sustainable play... more customers = more profit...simples...
Sorry Jimbo I have to disagree there, paintball is not to expensive it is cheaper now than it has ever been yet the customer base as you put it is shrinking & there are a few reasons for that.
1) The majority of tournaments are now 5 man format or Race to 2-4 which are run on smaller fields (50m compared to 70m) which in turn means they are faster games so less "Game Time" when compared to the 7 or 10 man events from when paintball in the uk was booming. Meaning less field time per pound.
2) Ramping guns which led to Rate Of Fire cap negated the fast fingered back players advantage over a bunker runner which in turn meant instead of being fast on a trigger you need to be fast on your feet as the pace of the game increased, this makes for a younger or fitter players game. Cutting out older & unfit players as they cannot play this style effectively so shrinking the tournament customer base.
3) Local councils are far tougher on planning applications making it more difficult & expensive for permanent venues & more expensive to set up & take down temporary venues. Add this to the lower profit margins & you have less money to put all the trimmings on the tournaments that used to make you go down the day before and wait to the end as few players do now.
4) Money:
10 x 7man teams £40 per player entry = £2800 per division
10 x 5man teams £40 per plaer enty =£2000 per division
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that if there is less profit in running a tournament then there is less cash for amenitys that make it better & less incentive to organise one.
5) Fuel costs: http://www.speedlimit.org.uk/petrolprices.html as you can see from this link it has nearly doubled in the last decade alone so now it costs more to get to tournaments which makes a big difference in where people are willing to go. We used to drive to Birmingham from Clacton on sea for the P.A league but that just isn't viable now.
The tournament organisers & manufacturers also pay more for their fuel but the gear is cheaper & the entry fee's are less so they have done all they can to keep it afloat cost wise.
I think players in general need to wake up & look at the good deal they are getting from local events & any form of sponsership they are recieving for a hobby/sport during a GLOBAL ECONOMIC CRISIS
1) The majority of tournaments are now 5 man format or Race to 2-4 which are run on smaller fields (50m compared to 70m) which in turn means they are faster games so less "Game Time" when compared to the 7 or 10 man events from when paintball in the uk was booming. Meaning less field time per pound.
2) Ramping guns which led to Rate Of Fire cap negated the fast fingered back players advantage over a bunker runner which in turn meant instead of being fast on a trigger you need to be fast on your feet as the pace of the game increased, this makes for a younger or fitter players game. Cutting out older & unfit players as they cannot play this style effectively so shrinking the tournament customer base.
3) Local councils are far tougher on planning applications making it more difficult & expensive for permanent venues & more expensive to set up & take down temporary venues. Add this to the lower profit margins & you have less money to put all the trimmings on the tournaments that used to make you go down the day before and wait to the end as few players do now.
4) Money:
10 x 7man teams £40 per player entry = £2800 per division
10 x 5man teams £40 per plaer enty =£2000 per division
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that if there is less profit in running a tournament then there is less cash for amenitys that make it better & less incentive to organise one.
5) Fuel costs: http://www.speedlimit.org.uk/petrolprices.html as you can see from this link it has nearly doubled in the last decade alone so now it costs more to get to tournaments which makes a big difference in where people are willing to go. We used to drive to Birmingham from Clacton on sea for the P.A league but that just isn't viable now.
The tournament organisers & manufacturers also pay more for their fuel but the gear is cheaper & the entry fee's are less so they have done all they can to keep it afloat cost wise.
I think players in general need to wake up & look at the good deal they are getting from local events & any form of sponsership they are recieving for a hobby/sport during a GLOBAL ECONOMIC CRISIS
Donk before i say anythig else i would like to say i think we both agree that there is a decline in the sport and one way to help would be a cash injection \ increase in profits and money put back into the sport to make it more appealing by improving the quality and availability of the events. i think we just differ on how this shoud\can be done.
I cant and dont disagree with paint and entry being cheaper than it used to be and based on the prices of old it is a good deal, That doesnt mean it cant be better though.
Firstly i want to address point 2, i think it would be fare to say that for every old unfit player that has left the sport due to this change there is an equal amount of younger fitter players joined, meaning that the customer base hasnt decreased due to this it has merely changed its dynamic. Obviously i dont have the figures to back this up but looking at the range of players at cpps round 1 and the people i play and train with it seems to be true. Now i firmly beleive that ramping and subsequent rof caps hasnt damaged the sport, it has merely changed it, some people think for the better some people think for the worse. I personally think for the better as I dont beleive its all about speed on your feet. i think it has just made the game more strategic as it now requires more movement and planning. People just need to learn how to re-act to and combat the movement with skill and teamwork instead of accuracy by volume cos lets face it no matter how fast you run its not gonna be faster than 300fps....
Now onto the rest of your points, If you look at points 1,3,4 and 5 they all come down to money, either money the player or the industry has to fork out, each of which is basically saying that people cant afford it anymore, or at least dont see the value for money they used to see (even when it cost more). So what should these people do? turn round and say "you know what i dont have £200 spare this month to play but you know what a few years ago it used to cost £400 so sod it ill spend the money i dont have"
That isnt going to happen so the industry needs to cater to the market by making it more affordable and appealling to the masses (now they cant do anything about petrol prices but what they can do is cater to the peoples needs and help reduce travel costs in other ways, we could also help ourselves on this point by not coming in 5 seperate cars, a bit of common sense goes a long way)
As for the stuff they can control you (and by you i mean everone, not directly aimed at Donk) have to understand that reducing the price of something doesnt necesarilly mean less profit it can actually mean more,. Now bear with me on this one as it takes some explaining. The summary (simple) version of what i am about to say is that if you cut the price of something in half but sell twice as many of them you can still make the same amount of profit, why do you think you cant move for BOGOF offers in the general marketplace.
To explain this lets look at what happens when sales of a product increase :
Now the first thing that happens is profits increase but its not as simple as if i make 10p profit per product and sell 100 i will make £10 profit and if i sell 200 i will make £20 profit. The way it works is that there is a break even point and everything sold after that is profit. To understand this point you have to take all costs of producing the product into account and understand the pricing matix that is setup. I will use paint as an example (and please do not think this are the actuall figures they are just for example).There are the variable costs such as raw materials and manufacturing wages that will be the same cost per product no matter how many products you sell (although raw materials costs generally come down with increased production volume do to increased buying power \ leverage over the supplier) What you then need to look at is fixed costs and the margin the company will make, The fixed costs (fixed costs being things like the purchase of the machinery, warehouse rent etc) do not change no matter how many products a company makes or sells they are 1 time payouts that are are incorporated into the price that the product is sold at in order recoup the costs (usually calculated based on forecasted sales at a product level. So say the company intends to sell 100 boxes of paint, they work out the variable costs will be £1500 the fixed costs will be £500 then they slap a 25% markup on it meaning that if they sell all 100 boxes at £25 per box then they have total income of £2500, giving them a tidy profit of £500. You can then break the per box numbers down like so. you pay £25 for a box of paint £15 of that is raw material cost, £5 is fixed costs leaving the margin at £5 per box. In reality though what the company will do is say that their costs are £2000 and the break even point is 80 sold boxes, anything after that is reported as profit. Now say next month they think they can sell 200 boxes, a couple of things happen here firstly their suppliers give them the raw materials at a better price, lets say they pay £2800 instead of the previous price of £3000, as they are ordering more (as this cost reduction logic applies their suppliers too) thus reducing their variable costs, the fixed costs are still £500 (as that is the cost of the machine regardless of how many paintballs they make out of it) so the cost to make the 200 boxes are £3300, now 2 things can happen here 1. The company continues to sell paint @ £25 per box, meaning their income (if all products were sold) would be £5000, giving them a profit of £1700. Which when looked at a per box basis gives us income per box of £25, variable cost per box £14, fixed cost per box £2.50, total costs = £16.50 meaning the margin would be £8.50 per box. So just by doubling the amount they sell they are making 70% more profit than before... now the 2nd thing they can do is reforecast and pass those savings onto the customer, i.e. as costs reduced on average by £3.50 per box they keep £1 of it (still increasing their profit) and pass the remainin £2 to us by giving us paint at £23 per box instead of £25 per box. Now this means that we then tell all our mates how cheap it is and then they start buying paint of these guys which exponentially increases their buying power thus reducing their avg variable and fixed costs per product.. Meaning everyone is happy as they increase profits yet we pay less for paint..
You look at any sale, any offer it is based on this logic that these costs have been calculated to ascertain where the break even point is how they can increase profits whilst reducing costs to the consumer...
Look at the NSPL, Syd closed it because there wasnt enough interest to get to the break even point. Now I am in no way speaking ill of Syd or what he did but had the cost of entry been reduced there is a potential that more teams may have entered which even at the lower cost per team still gave the NSPL the funds to break even and maybe turn a proffit. Now before i get hate mail im not saying he should have done this im sure Syd has enough business savy to figure all this out himself i am just putting this into context.
The same applies to the sport as a whole, the industry needs to make the sport more appealing and cost effective and try to turn a proffit based on low margin high volume rather than high margin low volume.
One final point i would like to make is that this isnt the only thing that needs to be done a few things need to change first and upmost is actually on the part of the players.... Stop trying to pit one version of paintball against the other... Paintball is Paintball pure and simple, if you dont like rec ball dont play it if you dont like tournaments then dont play them, if you dont like ramping dont use it but respect every single person for their own opinion and stop trying to ruin each others variants of the game. it is one sport and there is enough space, enough players and enough suppliers to support it all, if you dont like the current tourney format then dont play it...play something you do like but leave the format the f*** alone for those of us that do like it.
I cant and dont disagree with paint and entry being cheaper than it used to be and based on the prices of old it is a good deal, That doesnt mean it cant be better though.
Firstly i want to address point 2, i think it would be fare to say that for every old unfit player that has left the sport due to this change there is an equal amount of younger fitter players joined, meaning that the customer base hasnt decreased due to this it has merely changed its dynamic. Obviously i dont have the figures to back this up but looking at the range of players at cpps round 1 and the people i play and train with it seems to be true. Now i firmly beleive that ramping and subsequent rof caps hasnt damaged the sport, it has merely changed it, some people think for the better some people think for the worse. I personally think for the better as I dont beleive its all about speed on your feet. i think it has just made the game more strategic as it now requires more movement and planning. People just need to learn how to re-act to and combat the movement with skill and teamwork instead of accuracy by volume cos lets face it no matter how fast you run its not gonna be faster than 300fps....
Now onto the rest of your points, If you look at points 1,3,4 and 5 they all come down to money, either money the player or the industry has to fork out, each of which is basically saying that people cant afford it anymore, or at least dont see the value for money they used to see (even when it cost more). So what should these people do? turn round and say "you know what i dont have £200 spare this month to play but you know what a few years ago it used to cost £400 so sod it ill spend the money i dont have"
That isnt going to happen so the industry needs to cater to the market by making it more affordable and appealling to the masses (now they cant do anything about petrol prices but what they can do is cater to the peoples needs and help reduce travel costs in other ways, we could also help ourselves on this point by not coming in 5 seperate cars, a bit of common sense goes a long way)
As for the stuff they can control you (and by you i mean everone, not directly aimed at Donk) have to understand that reducing the price of something doesnt necesarilly mean less profit it can actually mean more,. Now bear with me on this one as it takes some explaining. The summary (simple) version of what i am about to say is that if you cut the price of something in half but sell twice as many of them you can still make the same amount of profit, why do you think you cant move for BOGOF offers in the general marketplace.
To explain this lets look at what happens when sales of a product increase :
Now the first thing that happens is profits increase but its not as simple as if i make 10p profit per product and sell 100 i will make £10 profit and if i sell 200 i will make £20 profit. The way it works is that there is a break even point and everything sold after that is profit. To understand this point you have to take all costs of producing the product into account and understand the pricing matix that is setup. I will use paint as an example (and please do not think this are the actuall figures they are just for example).There are the variable costs such as raw materials and manufacturing wages that will be the same cost per product no matter how many products you sell (although raw materials costs generally come down with increased production volume do to increased buying power \ leverage over the supplier) What you then need to look at is fixed costs and the margin the company will make, The fixed costs (fixed costs being things like the purchase of the machinery, warehouse rent etc) do not change no matter how many products a company makes or sells they are 1 time payouts that are are incorporated into the price that the product is sold at in order recoup the costs (usually calculated based on forecasted sales at a product level. So say the company intends to sell 100 boxes of paint, they work out the variable costs will be £1500 the fixed costs will be £500 then they slap a 25% markup on it meaning that if they sell all 100 boxes at £25 per box then they have total income of £2500, giving them a tidy profit of £500. You can then break the per box numbers down like so. you pay £25 for a box of paint £15 of that is raw material cost, £5 is fixed costs leaving the margin at £5 per box. In reality though what the company will do is say that their costs are £2000 and the break even point is 80 sold boxes, anything after that is reported as profit. Now say next month they think they can sell 200 boxes, a couple of things happen here firstly their suppliers give them the raw materials at a better price, lets say they pay £2800 instead of the previous price of £3000, as they are ordering more (as this cost reduction logic applies their suppliers too) thus reducing their variable costs, the fixed costs are still £500 (as that is the cost of the machine regardless of how many paintballs they make out of it) so the cost to make the 200 boxes are £3300, now 2 things can happen here 1. The company continues to sell paint @ £25 per box, meaning their income (if all products were sold) would be £5000, giving them a profit of £1700. Which when looked at a per box basis gives us income per box of £25, variable cost per box £14, fixed cost per box £2.50, total costs = £16.50 meaning the margin would be £8.50 per box. So just by doubling the amount they sell they are making 70% more profit than before... now the 2nd thing they can do is reforecast and pass those savings onto the customer, i.e. as costs reduced on average by £3.50 per box they keep £1 of it (still increasing their profit) and pass the remainin £2 to us by giving us paint at £23 per box instead of £25 per box. Now this means that we then tell all our mates how cheap it is and then they start buying paint of these guys which exponentially increases their buying power thus reducing their avg variable and fixed costs per product.. Meaning everyone is happy as they increase profits yet we pay less for paint..
You look at any sale, any offer it is based on this logic that these costs have been calculated to ascertain where the break even point is how they can increase profits whilst reducing costs to the consumer...
Look at the NSPL, Syd closed it because there wasnt enough interest to get to the break even point. Now I am in no way speaking ill of Syd or what he did but had the cost of entry been reduced there is a potential that more teams may have entered which even at the lower cost per team still gave the NSPL the funds to break even and maybe turn a proffit. Now before i get hate mail im not saying he should have done this im sure Syd has enough business savy to figure all this out himself i am just putting this into context.
The same applies to the sport as a whole, the industry needs to make the sport more appealing and cost effective and try to turn a proffit based on low margin high volume rather than high margin low volume.
One final point i would like to make is that this isnt the only thing that needs to be done a few things need to change first and upmost is actually on the part of the players.... Stop trying to pit one version of paintball against the other... Paintball is Paintball pure and simple, if you dont like rec ball dont play it if you dont like tournaments then dont play them, if you dont like ramping dont use it but respect every single person for their own opinion and stop trying to ruin each others variants of the game. it is one sport and there is enough space, enough players and enough suppliers to support it all, if you dont like the current tourney format then dont play it...play something you do like but leave the format the f*** alone for those of us that do like it.
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