Is cheating part of the game?

[Jones the Paint Magnet]

There must be an underground movement of idealists in paintball - otherwise why would we laud the Russian Legion so much for playing clean? (I'm aware from another thread that someone eventually got fed up and did something naughty, but they were exemplary in the matches I've seen them play, as have most other teams I may add ).

If we didn't regard their conduct as the "correct" one, why all the compliments? We should be saying "stupid idiots, if they'd have played on and wiped they'd have won that tourney! Suckers!"

Anyone else think that seems fundamentally screwy?!

 

[shifty]

i think that paintball is probably the sport where cheating has the biggest effect(BAD). if the game is 10 minutes long and there has been a big build up for the push and there is 2 mins left, and a key player is shot out, and they wipe the shot, then the other teams game has been completely in vain.
the main reason cheating has such a bad impact on our sport is that it is denying the other team of crucial points or moves. if cheating occurs in football, it is usually not as large scale, i.e. deny goals, but in paintball cheating is large scale and can turn games
at least proffesional refs r a step in the right direction.

 

[MuckRaker]

my $1.25 worth ...

well, the thing that bugs me more than any other is cheating at the promotional level. maybe not a good phrase, but let me explain. It's like at World Cup where rarely is a novice or rookie team allowed to win against a pro team. At 2001 Cup a friends team clearly hit several members of a pro team, noticeable hits, but the Refs didn't pull those players.

At a local tournament, a ringer team made of up of several of the host fields sponsored teams was allowed to play in a "Beginner" tournament. The promoter said it was because there weren't enough teams registered, so this ringer team was allowed to play. Points scored against them would count, but their scores would not count. somehow this ringer team placed in the finals and received a prize package.

then you got these issues like the Pro Slide and the Pro Wipe (sliding to cover a hit and rubbing a hit off on a bunker). Well, when you've got younger players watching these guys do that and get away with it, it definitely encourages those younger players to do the same thing. When you got pros who throw tantrums on the field, without an adequate sanctioning body in place, then it encourages younger players to do the same.

for me, the who comparison against mainstream sports doesn't quite fly. In the NFL or NBA, when a player goes above and beyond, they get severly sanctioned and/or fined. I don't see the same thing happening in the NPPL or PSP, even when the actions of a team or player go above and beyond.

Too, there is a limit to what you can do on the field to cheat. Wiping is about it, in terms of serious cheating (short of a physical altercation on the field or turning the velocity WAY up on the field). I agree it is dishonorable to wipe a hit. I also agree that it is dishonorable for a Ref to allow a player to wipe. Of course, this kinda goes back to what I mentioned earlier. Too many times you have a team reffing a game that their friends are playing in, and I've seen instances where a team benefitted from that relationship with the Ref.

 

[Mikey D]

Originally posted by manike


When I played rugby (very seriously) anything I could get away with in the back row, short of throwing punches and stamping, I would try. In rugby it was very much a case of 'playing to the ref'. If I could leave the scrum early or make just a little late tackle on a fly half, so he would fluff it next time, then I would. I'd joke about it with the fly half at the time and it would be part of the game. If I got caught and penalised then I'd stop...

manike

*******s. yesterday i played rugby against hereford sixth form. well they decided that it was time to kill the fly half, me i got the latest tackle after chipping over. shame i kicked it, else it would be such a good tackle. and damn it hurt soo much. damn ****ers, no sorry flankers

 

[Meyer]

I've got to agree with buddha on this. I played american footbal too, I remember on the line, the rules were a thing for freshman and new players. On the line in american football, players are almost completely sheilded from the reffs, so players get vicious, punches, holds, knees, anything to gain an edge. This has gone on for so long that it has become part of the sport. The phrase "Its not cheating if you don't get caught" comes to mind. As long as linemen can break the rules to gain an advantage, and get away with it, its always going to happen.

As for paintball, if a player is shot just before s/he bunkers someone, then the technical rules say s/he is out, and they should walk off the field. But in practice, since reffs are unwilling to jump in and stop the player, or to make the call that the player is playing on, then players who should have been eliminated are still eliminating opponents. What I'm saying is the official rules say its a penelty to play on after a hit, but the real world rules say you can finish the move, and youll get a mutual. I am comfortable saying that I would finish the move even if I know I've been hit (and save for a few pious souls anyone who says they wouldn't are lying), because if I'm already eliminated, then I can still take out an opponent without being penelized, thats just the way the sport works right now. I know this has been said to death, but the only way to stop cheating is to stiffen up reffing and penelties until the potential benefiets of cheating are outweighed by the potential consequences. Until then, just like in any other sport, players will play the game as it is played on the field, not in the rulebooks.

 

[ices]

Originally posted by manike


BUT for some strange reason I feel very differently when it comes to paintball.

Is it an honour thing? Maybe because we don't have refs that are up to scratch, I think the personal honour is more important?



Why is there such a stigma that goes along with cheating in paintball? There isn't so much in other sports until people really blow the rules apart that is...

I must admit from talking to many pro friends (and especially Americans) that they already feel this way... are we in Europe (UK?) maybe just a little behind in how we approach this Sport? Should we accept it to be part of the game and get on with it and be competitive?

Those who cannot take the stress of being a loser will always be a loser.(cheaters: play-ons etc)

Those who suck it up and play fair do not care if they lose.
They have the determination of a winner and they have a stronger sense of will to win, than a person who cheats.

 

[Swiss]

Okay, so why don't you ask yourself:

Is it cheatin if you bend the rules?

 

[Matski]

Swiss-

How can bending the rules be cheating? Do you go to prison for bending the law or breaking it? Not with a half decent lawyer anyway

Theres a fine line between bending the rules and breaking them, if players wanna overstep the 'line' then they accept the concequences, if they get caught.

Ices -

Gimme soma that stuff yur smokin, how can a person who plays 'white as white' by the rules have a stronger will to win than a player who is willing to risk getting his team penalised for the sake of the win?

"Those who suck it up and play fair do not care if they lose."

Oh yeah, Russian Legion sure stuck to that after getting beaten up on over and over again by the USA in X-ball. Of course you care if youre playing hard and getting cheated, everyone has a limit to having the piss taken out of them!

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by Jones the Paint Magnet
There must be an underground movement of idealists in paintball - otherwise why would we laud the Russian Legion so much for playing clean? (I'm aware from another thread that someone eventually got fed up and did something naughty, but they were exemplary in the matches I've seen them play, as have most other teams I may add ).

If we didn't regard their conduct as the "correct" one, why all the compliments? We should be saying "stupid idiots, if they'd have played on and wiped they'd have won that tourney! Suckers!"

Anyone else think that seems fundamentally screwy?!

I have to say that I have heard, in different words, what you're talking about. Actually quit a bit. I have been told that to not play-on when I might be able to or to not use a code system to distract the marshalls so I can wipe, etc is just plain naive because it is "part of the game".

That kind of thinking flies in the face of morality, which I define as the difference between what is possible and what should be done or not done. I am a moralist, however hopelessly inconsistent and hypocritical at moments, and therefore I am a relic.

"Good" in today's sports and business climate (especially in USA) = a winner. It doesn't matter how you get there, according to such thinking.

Just my take on it.

Steve

 

[Robin Hood]

Good evening everyone!

Right, just an idea that was floating through my mind whilst pondering over this thread. If we go back to the origins of paintball and how it was played years ago, then it was all in the woods with 20min, 40minute or heck, even longer games. Now, I'm sure we've all been to a recreational paintball game before. Usually when we first have a crack at the sport. We're all stupidly excited about playing, go charging into the first game and get shot out within a matter of minutes or seconds. We spend the next 15-20 mins on the sidelines watching the other 30 people shooting the crap out of eachother having a great time.
Now it's in this time that you're thinking, "A jeese, I wish I was still in the game, I could've done this, this and this. Oh, it would have been great!". So, the next game comes around and you're lasting a little longer, then "Whack", out of no where a pball gets you on the hopper. Well, shoot. You pull behind ure bunker, what's a boy to do? Well, you know the rules say you should stick ure gun up or whatever and walk to the safe zone. But hey, you paid alot of money to come play today and you want ure moneys worth. So what's one wipe if the other players didn't see you.......

Now I know that many people may recognize that situation, but acted alot more 'correctly', called themselves out or whatnot. Good for you. But I'm certain that it's this place where this 'cheating mentality' first begins to manifest itself into certain virgin ballers brains. As a couple of people have already mentioned, Buddha3 and others, how the whole concept of the 'wiping' form of cheating is more than just 'bending the rules' or a simple foul compared to football/soccer, whatever, it's just not comparable in that way. It is going against the whole objective of the game!
So, as these people progress throught the levels of paintball up to perhap tourney level, which of course is the 'big time' of paintball, or commercial future of paintball, then these people are going to transfer these attributes from one aspect of the game to another. Displaying these gross habits to young audiences who copy their idols....

Paintball is a very unique sport to say the least. There is no real sport as closely linked to it as say maybe football and rugby are for ex. Many of the problems encountered within paintball and professional paintball are being tackled for the first time. And as with anything, it's not always easy to get something right the first time.
Solutions will be found to these sooner or later, hopefully after not too much trial and error.

I look forward to the day when, after watching the saturday televised NPPL or Milenium tournament on terestrial tv I can chat with my mates at the pub about aspects of the games other than who wiped what or cheated this that and the other.

Ok, sorry for the rant, it probably doesn't make much sense as it's kinda late, but hopefully theres a good point or two lurking somewhere in this post.

Ta ta for now.
A Jermstad