Is cheating part of the game?

[manike]

I've learnt from previous mistakes and so am quoting someone from another thread to start this one off...

Originally posted by Solonor
Ok,I'm sure that you've watched most mainstream sports like football or basketball (especially here in Greece ) and of course you'll all have noticed that ALL players cheat in a way. Actually cheating has become a part of their game. You can see some guys pretending like hell and getting "unfair" fouls easily and they're called "good defensive players".
In paintball things are a bit more clear of course.Wiping SUCKS BIF TIME. But I think that when the sport gets bigger we could afford to let all responsibilities to the judges.
Respect

A great post, and I think worthy of discussion but not under the thread title it had.

At what point is cheating part of the game? This is a real interesting question for me. I've played a lot of sports and Solonor is absolutely correct.

When I played rugby (very seriously) anything I could get away with in the back row, short of throwing punches and stamping, I would try. In rugby it was very much a case of 'playing to the ref'. If I could leave the scrum early or make just a little late tackle on a fly half, so he would fluff it next time, then I would. I'd joke about it with the fly half at the time and it would be part of the game. If I got caught and penalised then I'd stop...

BUT for some strange reason I feel very differently when it comes to paintball.

Is it an honour thing? Maybe because we don't have refs that are up to scratch, I think the personal honour is more important?

Or should we just say that cheating IS part of the game? That we should try and get away with whatever we can. If we get caught we get penalised and take the penalty like people do in other sports?

Why is there such a stigma that goes along with cheating in paintball? There isn't so much in other sports until people really blow the rules apart that is...

I must admit from talking to many pro friends (and especially Americans) that they already feel this way... are we in Europe (UK?) maybe just a little behind in how we approach this Sport? Should we accept it to be part of the game and get on with it and be competitive?

My opinion is that at the moment we need the honour because the reffing is not good enough and thus we need to keep it fair (!?!?!), but Solonor is maybe 100% correct that if we had a decent level of reffing then anything should go (except safety and sport issues such as hot guns etc) and people just pay the price when caught... I'd advocate those prices being high... Maybe worth the risk... maybe not?

Cheating is a horrible word, maybe certain offences should be fouls? With some 'proffessional fouls' being banning offences...

manike

 

[TJ Lambini]

Cheating, or more specifically being a cheat, is a big deal in other sports. Being an Italian I love soccer, and I watch tha English Premiership a lot...players like Roy Keane and Paul Ince, cheat in that they play very hard and occassionally go over the top and hurt someone. But neither is regarded as dirty or a cheat - both are respected as hard players who push tha envelope.

Then ya got Alan Smith, Robbie Savage and Danny Mills - guys who try to get players sent off and will constantly niggle, kick out and generally wind-up opponents in an attempt to gain an advantage. These guys are hated by pretty much everyone bar their own supporters.

In paintball I'd suggest that the only players viewed as cheats in the same sense as the above-mentioned players, are persistent wipers. Occassional playing on and pushing tha limits in a Roy Keane-style - which is tha way most Pros play - ain't cheating.

 

[manike2]

So does that mean that people who occasionaly lose hits aren't cheats but people that persistently do, are?

How do you class playing on? Should it be that if you are caught you are a cheat, if you are not caught you aren't?

manike

 

[steve_e]

All what you say is very true, take any sport, football (soccer that is!!), rugby, cricket etc. Players view the rules as they are there to be used to there advantage. Fouls etc are commited when the referee, lines men etc are not looking. But as you say it's up to the the referees, umpires etc to make sure that the cheats are punished. It is also up to the players to play as fairly as possible.

The one problem which we have in paintball is that the Marshalls don't have the respect of the players . . .they'll argue , bitch, whinge and even physically assault a marshall or other players if they aren't happy with a decision.

Where as these kind of extremes sometimes occur in other sports, when it does the punishment take is normally extreme, i.e. large fines, banned for months or even a year!

One of the main problems of enforcing this in paintball is that there isn't a external governing body. . . . take the Millenium Series this is run by members or owners of teams, imagine if the FA consisted of players from teams!

Anyway that my thoughts . . . .

 

[TJ Lambini]

>>>>'So does that mean that people who occasionaly lose hits aren't cheats but people that persistently do, are?'<<<

To me, losing a hit is a premeditated act of deliberate cheating - I don't accept that a rush of blood to tha head can cause a wipe. Therefore, one wipe = cheat.

>>>'How do you class playing on? Should it be that if you are caught you are a cheat, if you are not caught you aren't? '<<<

Not cut and dried. If I'm going to bunker a player and I feel a hit while going over the top, then I have to carry on with my move, cos there is no way in hell I can stop and check myself - that's down to tha judge to be on tha spot and to make tha call. Personally, if I feel a single hit while I'm committed, I'll make the move - but if I take a couple on tha run in then I'll pull myself without checking and head off the field without finishing tha move. I've done this only to find all tha shots bounced off before, but I'd rather take that option - personal call.

However, if you're sat behind a bunker and you feel a hit you have a responsibility to check yourself or call a ref over to do it...obviously there will be tha odd instance where you don't feel a hit, but these are few an' far between. In short, if a guy is getting pulled for playing on on a regular basis, he's gonna get a rep as a cheat, but if it happens every now and again then it's like getting sent off in soccer.

S'never gonna be cut n dried in paintball...

 

[manike]

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
>>>>'So does that mean that people who occasionaly lose hits aren't cheats but people that persistently do, are?'<<<

To me, losing a hit is a premeditated act of deliberate cheating - I don't accept that a rush of blood to tha head can cause a wipe. Therefore, one wipe = cheat.

Losing a hit isn't just blatant wiping in my opinion... If a player is hit on his side but isn't sure it broke (say it did) and then slid into a bunker on that side... is it wiping? or part of the game? I'd say both. If a judge sees it then he has two choices... if the player looked like he was gonna slide that way anyway then it's just an elimination. If the player twisted or made an unexpected move to slide that way then it's wiping... tough call.

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
>>>'How do you class playing on? Should it be that if you are caught you are a cheat, if you are not caught you aren't? '<<<

Not cut and dried. If I'm going to bunker a player and I feel a hit while going over the top, then I have to carry on with my move, cos there is no way in hell I can stop and check myself - that's down to tha judge to be on tha spot and to make tha call.

A great point and a very interesting one. I saw a judge who shall for the moment remain nameless make what I thought was a good call. A pro American player watching said it wasn't.

What happened is a player got bunkered. Full in the chest they both shot each other. The bunkering player went passed and was then shot in the back by the bunkered guy. The judge did him as a one for one for playing on and shooting the guy even though he had his gun up and pointing in the direction of the oncoming bunkering player. Now both players were shot in the front and thus eliminated each other, but because the bunkered guy span and continued to shoot he was done 1-4-1. If the ball hadn't broken on his chest (and he had no time to look) then he would have been perfectly fine and right. But since he took the risk and span and kept shooting he was definitely playing on (to ensure he took the guy who shot him) and thus was in my opinion rightfully 1-4-1'd. A very well known pro American disagreed and yet he saw it the same from almost the same distance...

So if you are shot and play on you are in the right if it bounced, but cheating if it broke... That's the risk.

manike

 

[TJ Lambini]

Point 1 - good point, that's why we need on tha ball judges. Sliding is a tricky issue and I didn't really have it in my head when I was talking bout wiping, though I should have.

Point 2 - I agree, the ref made a good call.

 

[Collier]

Originally posted by manike


Losing a hit isn't just blatant wiping in my opinion... If a player is hit on his side but isn't sure it broke (say it did) and then slid into a bunker on that side... is it wiping? or part of the game? I'd say both. If a judge sees it then he has two choices... if the player looked like he was gonna slide that way anyway then it's just an elimination. If the player twisted or made an unexpected move to slide that way then it's wiping... tough call.

This is what I agree with personally!

Paul.

 

[CROOKED-POPO]

Depends on what style of game your playing. If your talking about local ball, I'd say cheating plays a small part. If you play regional tourneys, then it goes up a bit. When you go play NPPL, cheat your butt off. There's no punishment anyway, and all the players seem to just accept it as part of the game at that level. Yes, I put on asbestos.

 

[SCOOT DOGGY DOG]

IT CAN'T BE CUT AND DRY BECAUSE ALL THESE INCIDENTS ARE NEVER THE SAME (OR SEEN FROM THE SAME ANGLE) I KNOW FROM REFFIN TO ALWAYS BE IN THE GAME AS IF I WERE PLAYIN MYSELF. ALWAYS LOOKIN FOR THE NEXT GUY TO GET MUGGED. YET NOT BIRD-DOGGIN. IT IS TOUGH TO GET EVERY CALL, BUT WHEN THE CALL IS MADE I STAND FIRM IN THAT CALL. THE REF SHOULD HAVE THE RESPECT OF ALL THE PLAYERS.BUT THEN AGAIN GOOD REFS ARE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN. I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY PLAYER CHEAT OR RIDE THE EDGE WHEN THE WINNINGS ARE SO HIGH.THIS STILL DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT. THE PLAYERS MUST MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO CHECK OR CALL FOR A CHECK BEFORE PLAYIN ON.THIS CAN (AND DOES) GET INTERPERATED DIFFERENTLY BY ALL. I THINK SOME OFF US SHOULD HAVE BECOME LAWYERS , BY THE WAY WE WHITTLE AROUND THE RULES!!!