How long before the automag is dead

[Jones the Paint Magnet]

My 2 cents . . .

I think AGD are pretty much here to stay. When I started 12 years ago, being automag fodder was a standard part of the rec experience! Years later, and the automag is still around, although many others I could name aren't.

It's true that standard automags probably can't compete in a top end tourney (certainly not if I'm using one), but don't understimate the support for a manufacturers products from other areas of the sport. I'm sure AGD don't, otherwise they wouldn't strive for the degree of upgradability or retrocomaptibility that most of their stuff is designed with. Automags are fine for young gun tourneys, walk ons, rec days, or shooting punters with an unnatural attraction for stray paintballs They get the job done, as do most other markers that are considered "obsolete" - still around and tagging people today.

Tournaments are at the cutting edge of gun development, so it's no surprise the standard mag isn't there anymore. As soon as gadget "X" comes along, everyone rushes out to upgrade their marker or buy a new one that has "X" included in its design. I wouldn't be surprised if a similar thread was started for other by-words we have now for tourney markers in a few years.

AGD have their new developments and tourney toys, but they still have a commitment to their older products, at least for the time being, so I see the classic automag, or the option to upgrade being around a while longer.

 

[Actium]

Automags obsolete???

Anyone who has seen the Airgun Design e-mag extreme with the ACE (Anti Chop Eye) feature would never say automags coudn't be competitive at tournament level.The retro valve alone could unload 26-BPS mechanically you do of course have to know how to shoot the gun, you must be able to sustain very high rates of fire, and the darted trajectory does serve well for clearing the roaches out of the bunker and as far as upgrades Airgun has said that Extreme E-mag bodies will be available as upgrade features along with E-mag electro trigger assemblies...And by the way whats wrong with learning how to shoot a nonelectro marker do we all have to rush to go and get newest PROUD rainbow coloured button pushing spyder trajectory having fad out there, forget it ..It's alway been Cockers and Mags and it will always be Cockers and Mags.....

 

[Gunga]

Originally posted by rob_evanson
With the increase of electro-pneumatic markers, how long do poeple think the good old Automag 68 will be around for. I'm really more worried about parts.

Is there any advantage in upgrading to a ReTro valve on my mag. For £199 I would expect something good, but WHAT??

I wouldn't worry about AGD going anywhere. As for parts, Automags have been out for what...10 years with thousands upon thousands sold? Also, AGD's got a nice variety of products, for those with varying budgets/experience. Lower end, the Automag/Minimag. Midrange, the RT Pro. High end, the E-Mag and soon, the E-Mag Extreme (Emag with aluminum body, anti-chop eye, and the superbolt).

As for spending your $$ on a RetroValve, ask yourself this. What other company lets you upgrade your gun in a major way for so cheaply, besides AGD and Tippmann? Buying a RetroValve for $250-300 turns your Automag into a RT Pro, minus the cosmetics. Or spend $550 to turn your Automag into an E-Mag.

If you buy an Impulse...and then later want to upgrade to the next marker in Smart Parts product line, you'd have to buy an entirely new gun, which would be significantly more expensive than just buying an entirely new valve mechanism, ala AGD. And you're not giving up any performance by not replacing the entire gun.

One thing I dislike about Smart Parts/WDP/Worr is that even from the factory, they have all these 'better' parts (different bolts, airchambers, regs, hammers, rams, etc) available for their guns (I'm talking mechanically better, not cosmetically). Why not get it all right and give the consumer the best stuff right from the start, like AGD does?

Also, for you ROF freaks, if you doubt the Automag's ability to lay out the paint, just check out the videos for the Halo at: http://www.odysseypaintball.com/halo.htm

They're only using an Automag circa 1993.

Additionally, those of you worried that you don't see Mags, other than E-Mags and an occasional RT/RT Pro, keep in mind that out of the 7.5 million paintball players (in the US anyway) tourney players are BY FAR an extreme minority.

Just my opinion. I'm sure some out there disagree with me.

 

[KillerOnion]

Originally posted by Gunga


One thing I dislike about Smart Parts/WDP/Worr is that even from the factory, they have all these 'better' parts (different bolts, airchambers, regs, hammers, rams, etc) available for their guns (I'm talking mechanically better, not cosmetically). Why not get it all right and give the consumer the best stuff right from the start, like AGD does?

That is PRECISELY why Mags have fallen far from favor. Owners can't hot rod them, and shops can't make any money off of selling extras for them. Aftermarket Spyder, Cocker, and Angel (and to a lesser extent M98) parts are an ENORMOUS majority of paintball shops' inventories. Other than drop forwards, barrels, Revo's, and hoses, nearly every item you see under the counter is some variety of "performance" part for those 4 guns. As long as people are willing to make their Cocker 1/2% more functional, their Angel 10% more expensive, and their Spyder 25-100% more able to delude them into thinking that it isn't still just a stupid Spyder, those parts will sell big. Shops won't advertise a marker they can't keep making money off of after it's put together and working, not to mention that AGD's advertising efforts are but a mere fraction of WDP's and Worr's so comparatively few people walk into shops "knowing" they want a Mag.

AGD doesn't mind this, and they don't even really care. They SHOULD care that if they had put out the Emag in 99 they'd have probably 4 times the market share in the new electro market than they do, but they don't. I (and probably the majority of people for that matter) don't think it at all unreasonable to say that if they had put out the EMag at the same time or slightly before the Angel LCD got out then there would be half as many Angels out there right now as there are today, perhaps even less than half. They made the choice to be in WDP's shadow, and that's perfectly ok. They make EMags exactly as they want them to be made: impeccably well designed, sturdy, functionally flawless, and competitive with anything out there.

But they still are not and will not be used by the majority of players or teams for above stated reasons.

 

[Sqweezer]

www.automags.org

enough said

 

[Gunga]

Re: Re: How long before the automag is dead

quote:
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Originally posted by Gunga


One thing I dislike about Smart Parts/WDP/Worr is that even from the factory, they have all these 'better' parts (different bolts, airchambers, regs, hammers, rams, etc) available for their guns (I'm talking mechanically better, not cosmetically). Why not get it all right and give the consumer the best stuff right from the start, like AGD does?


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Originally posted by KillerOnion
That is PRECISELY why Mags have fallen far from favor. Owners can't hot rod them, and shops can't make any money off of selling extras for them. Aftermarket Spyder, Cocker, and Angel (and to a lesser extent M98) parts are an ENORMOUS majority of paintball shops' inventories. Other than drop forwards, barrels, Revo's, and hoses, nearly every item you see under the counter is some variety of "performance" part for those 4 guns. As long as people are willing to make their Cocker 1/2% more functional, their Angel 10% more expensive, and their Spyder 25-100% more able to delude them into thinking that it isn't still just a stupid Spyder, those parts will sell big. Shops won't advertise a marker they can't keep making money off of after it's put together and working, not to mention that AGD's advertising efforts are but a mere fraction of WDP's and Worr's so comparatively few people walk into shops "knowing" they want a Mag.

Yeah, it is unfortunate that AGD gets 'penalized' by Joe Paintballer for making a product that 'gets everything right' right out of the box. Me, I personally LIKE not having to spend hundreds of $$ to 'upgrade' my paintball gun. I'd rather spend the money on actually playing paintball.

Also, the styling leaves something to desired to most people (personally, I like the no-nonsense 'industrial' look). Sure, you might think it's ugly, but I'll shoot you 'dead' just the same as a milled & anodized to death Angel/Cocker/Shocker/etc. Also, since a large part of the Mag is made of stainless steel, everyone and their 8th cousin can't make their own 'custom' Mag as is such the rage in Cockerland, and to a smaller extent, guns such as the Impulse and Angel.

But, on that topic, AGD is working on aluminum bodies for Automags (not to mention the upcoming E-Mag Extreme), so the 'prettiness' factor should be moot rather soon.

More advertising would be nice as well, but there is always the small matter of actually paying for it.

 

[Billy No Mates]

killer onion - i couldnt help but notice AGD came under very heavy fire from yourself. Something says that you may be very biased for some reason.
you seem to be wrapped up in spending money on a gun, regardless of anything else except having all the gizmos.

some people out there cant afford to but a new angel/cocker and then another 500-1000 on upgrading them.
i too would rather buy something, take it out of its box, and be happy that i dont have to spend more money on getting something im happy with.

im not to say that everything you say is wrong, but your being pretty harsh to AGD.

 

[KillerOnion]

Harsh? No. I just simply call it like I see it. I don't find any particular fault with them really except that they are non-aggressive in their marketing and production, but that's their decision. I respect them totally as a manufacturer and a business which they have achieved their target levels. They're just simply not impressing me at all as a competitor. They're either content to hold the market share that they do or simply don't want to go to the lengths that the other companies have gone to try to capture the market. Or it is possible that they have too much of a gap to cover in the near run as SP, ICD, WDP, and the various Cocker makers had taken such a huge lead before the Emag came out and that AGD could gain an equal or greater market share given sufficient time. Whichever the case may be, you don't see them courting pro or Am A teams, selling Emags for $750 upon special invitation, offering incentives to dealers to sell 500 Emags in xx number of days, putting in rebates, offering joint discounts like $10 discount per case of a certain brand of paint for 1-3 years, etc. If they would do such things they would recapture the market and certainly earn more respect.

 

[crom-dubh]

Billy
I have to agree with Killer onion. I use an RT and love it so I am not bashing AGD at all. Yeah it great to buy a marker that needs little or no mods to it to make it perform at its best, but one of the aspects of paintball is modifying your marker. You wanna make it a personal thing, something you can be proud of. With a mag this is hard to do as nearly all after market parts are worse than the original. I think AGD rested on their laurels too long and are now only realizing what needs to be done to keep them in the market.

 

[Burb]

I think the comments about there marketing are fair, however they are a very innovative company.
They where one of the first companys to get a Compressed Air system on the market (correct me if im wrong) they have brought ball feeding to new levels with there warp feed, (not saying it is better) but it is deffinatley moving the design side of paintball forward.
The reason i like mags is because you can strip it from top to toe, in a matter of seconds. Replace what ever o-ring is faulty and away you go. However i dislike the fact its output pressure is 700psi, far too noisy!!