Has XSV changed the face of tournament Paintball forever?

[Chicago]

If you want to let everyone know how the code works, then you need the source code. As much as you don't want to admit it, that is IP. It will start out as theirs, once you pay for it, it will be yours.

And again, I think you're missing the whole point of hiring a contractor: The IP is *NEVER* theirs. The IP being yours is a condition of them getting the contract in the first place.

If you buy the ability to make and sell boards without the source code, the cost is currently approx $10,000 depending on who you want to deal with.

That won't work. Again, the problem that must be solved is that secret code is allowed. Mandating different secret code solves nothing.

If you want to pay for the rights to the source code you can expect to pay more.

No I don't. I expect to go to an electrical engineer and say "I need two months of work. How much?" And we will negotiate a price based on whether it's worth his time to work on my contract or a contract for someone else.

You're assuming I'm trying to buy IP. I'm not. I'm contracting with an engineer for X amount of work. I am going to specify what I want and the engineer is going to do it. The engineer does not care what the product is worth. The whole POINT of contract work is that the engineer gets paid based on the amount of work REGARDLESS of what the product is worth. IP isn't worth anything to them because they won't want to make a product, they want to do the engineering work, get paid, and then move on to their next contract. If they wanted to make a product, they'd be a business.

It's just like hiring an employee - I pay you to work for me, and as long as you work for me I own the product of everything you do. National doesn't change your salary based on how valuable what you are currently working on is, do they?

 

[manike]

I don't think you actually have a clue what IP is. It stands for 'Intellectual Property'.

IP is 'know how', it is 'source code', it is 'layouts of boards', it is 'gerber files', it is all the stuff you need to make gun boards. It's what you are trying to buy. What do you think you are trying to buy?

I'm telling you what it will cost to get what you want. Your trying to make it out that you want something else?

If you want to pay someone for two months of their time, then what you are buying is ALL the IP they create in those two months...

I'm starting to think it's the language you don't understand?

intellectual property
n.

A product of the intellect that has commercial value, including copyrighted property such as literary or artistic works, and ideational property, such as patents, appellations of origin, business methods, and industrial processes.

NPS owns all the IP I create while I work for them. My know how on projects, my designs, my processes, my files, are all IP I create while I work for them, and that they own because I work for them.

IP, isn't the value of the idea, or what that idea would be worth in a business setting. It's the idea itself, or the board design itself, or the source code itself.

 

[shamu]

Most contract developers charge by the hour, depending on the type of work to be done. The more rarified the skill set, the more they get to charge.

(do you know who's making big bucks right now? old school COBOL developers - they're the only ones who can maintain some of the legacy mainframe systems a lot of companies still rely on but COBOL isn't sexy so no one studies it. consequently, you have a small pool of resources with specific skills)

Can you hire someone to create your "IP" or source code? Sure. But expect them to charge you more for the work. also, don't think any old developer will do. While they may hash together something that works, the first few revs will likely be garbage code until they figure out what they're doing. Even after a few generations it's unlikely the code will be as efficient as someone who already has the experience.

So yes, you can just hire someone to do the work. You can have it good, cheap or fast. Pick two.

 

[manike]

Most contract developers charge by the hour, depending on the type of work to be done. The more rarified the skill set, the more they get to charge.

(do you know who's making big bucks right now? old school COBOL developers - they're the only ones who can maintain some of the legacy mainframe systems a lot of companies still rely on but COBOL isn't sexy so no one studies it. consequently, you have a small pool of resources with specific skills)

Can you hire someone to create your "IP" or source code? Sure. But expect them to charge you more for the work. also, don't think any old developer will do. While they may hash together something that works, the first few revs will likely be garbage code until they figure out what they're doing. Even after a few generations it's unlikely the code will be as efficient as someone who already has the experience.

So yes, you can just hire someone to do the work. You can have it good, cheap or fast. Pick two.

Thank you. At least someone understands. I was starting to think I wasn't explaining it or something.

In essence, Chicago, all the argueing semantics or whatever.

I understand what you would need in order to achieve what you want. As someone who has paid for similar things and been involved in similar processes, I estimated it would cost you in the region of $10,000 per gun set up you want.

How many differnt types of guns do you want boards and safe chips for?

 

[Chicago]

I'm not disagreeing on the cost, necessarily. I'm disagreeing that the labor is suddenly more expensive based on how much of the product I get.

Now, maybe it's cheaper to go to someone who already makes boards and figure out what the price is to get source code from them. But they're in the board business, so it's going to depend on the value they perceive to be giving away, as you've said. But they can't charge more than actual development costs, because at that point it makes more sense to... actually, I'm not going to complete that sentence.

 

[manike]

I'm disagreeing that the labor is suddenly more expensive based on how much of the product I get.

Never said the labor was more expensive depending on how much product you got.

I said that the product was more expensive depending on how much of the product you got...

 

[shamu]

Rich, I think you are being way too modest, I think what you have done is dragged us all screaming into the new professional era and as you say, you saw an opportunity and took it.....but it ain't all about cheque-book management as you know, there is a fair degree of sophistication being applied to your team that includes areas such as training, man-management (and all that entails), sponsor acquisition and management, media representation...the list goes on.

Dynasty took Paintball to new levels in terms of play, XSV have taken us further up that ladder and have managed themselves into a position where they can now not only look below toward Dynasty but their last result in XBall affords them a similar position with regard to the Russians and that is one hell of an achievement.
Who couldn't respect that ?

Rich has a 100% pragmatic take on pro Paintball, he will win, he'll take no prisoners on the way and if anybody thinks he is doing things any differently from any other highly successful coach and owner in any other, more established sports, then think again.
He was a great pro as a player and now he's maturing into a great coach/ manager in what seems like a seamless transition.

I don't think Rich is being modest at all. I think he knows exactly what he's done. But why should he admit it here and give other teams (basically everyone besides Dynasty and RL) the chance to copy him? I think Rich is too clever (or sneaky) to let the cat out of the bag that way.

It seems to me the structure of XSV is a the next step in the evolution of the sport, following what Dynasty and RL have done in the past. The difference is this is being applied to a developing team (Dynasty existed, then used sports management to develop sponsors) and with diverse income streams (RL is fully sponsored and professional, but all funded from one private resource). It seems Rich took the best from both teams and applied them to XSV with very positive results.

As far sustainability - I think that depends on two things: outside resources and adoption of this structure by other teams. Relying solely on PB companies for sponsorship ties the team to the rise and fall of the PB economy. Acquiring outside sponsorship (XS energy drinks - XSV, Intel - Dynasty) and alternate income sources (field walking, clinics, hard and soft good sales) is key to separating the team finances from the state of PB companies. This provides long-term stability for the team.

As PB gains exposure through TV and sponsorship involvement (other companies will be watching how Intel does with the PB sponsorship), the opportunities for more outside investment will grow and be available to more teams. (Of course, this assumes PB doesn't shoot itself in the foot somehow ) More teams will be able to adopt some or all of the techniques XSV is using. Eventually, you may see the truly professional sport that everyone talks about.

Of course, Intel and other sponsors could decide PB is filled with immature idiots and not worth their investment, in which case things continue as they have in the past.

 

[Chicago]

Makes you wonder how many XSV's and Dynasty's and Russian Legions you need before they just make their own league.

Apparently more than 3.

 

[PSPGeoff]

Missy-Q can you turn your IM on , I have to ask you something.....

 

[MissyQ]

Call on my cell Geoff, I am on my way to Vegas for the weekend.