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Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
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with respect Robbo, you seem to have this notion that people are setting out to get at you over your ideas, which i don't think is true. You never struck me as the sensitive sort............

I agree with Sids sentiment in starting this thread and am all for the power of positive thought and all that crap. I also agree with your point of view in that the UK needs to change its attitude towards paintball and its development as a sport.

however, no matter what anyone thinks it is not going to happen overnight and in the meantime we have to make the best of what is available to us.

if anyone wants a wake up call, come to Ireland for a month and try to find somewhere to play your favourite game. things are on the up here too, with Escarmouche opening a new site for punters with no less than 3 airball fields in the very near future.
No, not just me Dusty, I think I was clumped in with a bunch of others but I will obviously answer for my own part.
As for you believing I ain't sensitive, go back through the reams of cr@p I have gotten myself involved in on here...oh my god !!!!!
Hair-trigger comes to mind.
:)
I also agree with Sid's sentiment but we cannot package the rhetoric in the way he, and others have done lest we lose sight of what really needs to be done and trust me Dusty, seeing some sites busy is not the indicator that we should be looking at, we need to be looking at populations of UK teams in Millenniums and their success.

As for what Escaramouche are doing?
That is exactly what we need and as long as the other points I have mentioned get addressed too, then we should be good to go and nobody will be happier than myself when I begin seeing us Brits climb back up that ladder.
 

Dusty

Don't run, you'll only die tired....
May 19, 2004
7,606
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Northern Ireland
No, not just me Dusty, I think I was clumped in with a bunch of others but I will obviously answer for my own part.
As for you believing I ain't sensitive, go back through the reams of cr@p I have gotten myself involved in on here...oh my god !!!!!
Hair-trigger comes to mind.
:)
I also agree with Sid's sentiment but we cannot package the rhetoric in the way he, and others have done lest we lose sight of what really needs to be done and trust me Dusty, seeing some sites busy is not the indicator that we should be looking at, we need to be looking at populations of UK teams in Millenniums and their success.

As for what Escaramouche are doing?
That is exactly what we need and as long as the other points I have mentioned get addressed too, then we should be good to go and nobody will be happier than myself when I begin seeing us Brits climb back up that ladder.
Duly noted, what i meant by sensitive was, going and grabbing a pink and fluffy comfort toy................ crying in the corner sensitive!! ;)

sensitive to comments made about that which you have worked at for 3 years or more (Nexus), thats totally understandable, yet a different, more paternal (with reference to Robbo??) kind of protective instinct.

as for Escarmouche, it is not a case of what THEY are doing. down to one man it has to be said. maybe an excuse for some of you English boys to come over and have a couple of games in between a weekends drinking???

but seriously, i see what you mean, a couple of sites here and there is like trying to dye the entire ocean red with a bottle of food colouring. yet a journey of a thousand miles begins with but a single step............

however if that step is in the wrong direction the entire journey will have been for nothing. lets hope that with changing times and physical evidence of a growing market, other site owners will follow suit. after that it will hopefully snowball into something every single tourney player can build on. the tourney scene here should become more of a focus, and in turn a larger pool of teams will hopefully arrive.

I would like to think it can and will eventually happen, however that doesn't help you or me at this present moment in time. as much as anyone else i would love a lot more happening on my doorstep and of a higher standard but i know it is not going to happen overnight.

hopefully this post has been conveyed in an optimistic way in keeping with the theme of the original thread title.
 

sabianfan

Active Member
Jan 11, 2005
402
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Grantham Lincolnshire
Sab, one swallow don't make a summer mate !
Our Millennium performances aren't good Sab, and I'm being nice here !

As for misinterpreting any 'veiled attacks', well I hope I'm wrong and maybe it was the tone of the posts that misled me but even as I read them again , they do still read a tad accusatory.
Still, I will accept your redirect and hope that dwelling on the negatives, as I think that other thread most certainly does, is basically a necessary rites of passage that we need to confront and conclude before we move on.
yeh didnt mean to accuse, and yeah i suppose in the cpl we should be winning out right in europe before being anything like the yanks. I heard that most of the american xsv players are coming to campaign so we shall see how they fare against our lot.
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
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Duly noted, what i meant by sensitive was, going and grabbing a pink and fluffy comfort toy................ crying in the corner sensitive!! ;)
.
Dusty, nah, not really my style mate, more like I wud pull the head off the damned toy and then go for the person who had pissed me off.

Sabian, It's not that we have to win any Millenniums, tho that would be nice, we just need to be better represented in terms of numbers and average success. That is what I would most certainly view as a healthy indicator to our tournament health.
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
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OK, I think probably what Chris and Saab, and others, are getting at is, we need not dwell on negatives too long otherwise, this in itself can become counter-productive to the cause.

In the UK we do have positives, lots of them, it's a matter of recognition first, then putting them into some form of context and then coming up with a plan of action.

It serves no purpose whatsoever throwing in a few cliché’s here and there as a rallying call and then expect everything to start falling into place because some people have been inspired by a few well meant (but inappropriate) words of encouragement.
And when I used the word 'inappropriate' there, I don't mean to suggest the encouragement wasn't needed, I just meant the rallying calls were inappropriate in the way they made people think about our problem.

If what I am saying is true in that we need to revitalize our tourney circuit then there are but two approaches, one is short to mid term and the other, mid to long.

The short to mid term solution is this: - I am convinced that we have a player base in this country that if sufficiently organized can provide us with a dominant position in the Millennium.
I ain't talking about winning every divisional title here, I am talking about our average performances as a nation being dominant, and that means a lot more teams in the Millennium getting a lot better results.

This can be achieved by a subtle rearrangement of our player base because far too many good players out there are playing for teams who are indifferent to improvement.
We have an inertia of team involvement over here that sometimes holds back aspiring talent in that good players end up playing for teams who do not aspire toward the same goals.

And so my recommendations would be, we all take a serious look at why we play this game, if you feel your sporting ethos isn't matched by your team mates, then look to move to a team that does.
In this way, serious ballers will begin, over a period of time to aggregate and therefore, in time, bring up the average quality within our teams.

Now I am working on the premise that as we are now, in the teams we are presently in (generally speaking) we ain't gonna be doing that much in terms of a collective improvement, after all, we haven't really shown anything too significant recently that suggests otherwise.
If it weren’t for the Kelly’s and Shock, what the fukk would we have?
Seriously, what have we got?...think about that for a moment or two.

And so, to move away from this dire state of affairs we need to change our game plan and come up with credible alternatives to just sitting around and hoping things get better.
If players take my advice and question why they play this sport of ours and decide it’s because they are serious sportsmen then it’s incumbent upon them to make the effort and make sure they optimize their commitment and talent by making damned sure the team they are in has that same ethos and if not, move on.

This is one positive, and hugely important thing we can do as Brit ballers to begin any resurgence.
There is no greater tragedy in any sport if a talented, committed player just settles playing for a team because he doesn’t want to upset anybody on that team.
I am not saying you should be disloyal, I am just suggesting that perhaps it’s about time you should be loyal to yourself.

Ok, onto my second plan of action, and this is one that requires a little more organizing because it requires different strands of the industry to work together.

To understand this problem we need to recognize what our end goal is, and it is an increased population of tourney ballers.
But it’s not as simple as that because we need the right type of player to swell the ranks and not just an increase in a similar demographic.
Basically, as I have said before, we have far too many displaced recballers in our tourney ranks because they have no other alternative to play if they wanna move away from rental play.

To facilitate this qualitative increase in our tourney base, we need to educate people and there are two ways in which we can do this.
Firstly the easier course, we need our site owners to expand their business operations to include Sup Air fields and coupled with that, they must adopt a positive policy of promotion.

They have a captive audience in their rental market when they arrive on site and it won’t take much investment to have a fair percentage of these customers getting interested in Sup Air if the appropriate presentations are done.
As I have said before, perhaps a DVD running on site, magazines laying around etc, it’s not difficult to sell sup air, it sells itself to the young male demographic, on this point I am 100% convinced, I have just seen it soo many times myself to ignore the attraction tourney ball holds for the virgin male onlooker.
The site owner can then transform his twice yearly rental customer into a monthly walk-on and you don’t have to be any sort of mathematician to work out the benefits of that increased business…….

If this is done across sufficient sites, then in time we will see an increase in the tourney population as players will migrate from rentals through to walk-ons and ultimately into tournaments.

The second part to this is a tad more difficult because it involves various bodies getting together and putting together a coherent working strategy of promotion.
As I have mentioned elsewhere, Germany has shown us all that direct marketing of tourney ball to the public works….understand this because it is extremely important here……We need to get into malls and market tourney ball with presentation DVD’s leaflets, magazines, whatever, the important thing is to get out there and do it. ….if an outfit like Delta Force can do it then bejeeezus, I am sure the rest of the industry can.

I know the product of tourney ball is a million times more attractive than Rambo ball and if Delta Force can make a ton of dosh charging the prices they do , and providing the sort of facilities they do, then any enterprising co-operative can make a lot more than those guys with the product we have.

Obviously, behind that promo campaign we have to have an infrastructure of sites providing the facilities and this is where we need sites and industry to work together.
Sites really need to get real here and I remain unconvinced as to whether they have the necessary professionalism or business acumen to adopt this new thinking.
I will be more than pleased to be proved wrong on this point.

Anyway, if something is actually done in this direction then this will have an enormous effect on our tourney population.

So there you have it. ….positivism returns….a little hope even rears its head and yet we still come to the realization that we need to actually do something.
I will give my time and effort to any serious and coherent campaign to help us along but unless it’s organized and going in the right direction with the right people making the right noises and doing the right things then it won’t be worth attempting.
 

Syd (NSPL)

NSPL and Pr0to KotH
Aug 30, 2001
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Pete, first off let me say that your above post has to be one of the most important and positive things I've ever read on these forums and I, for one, am hugely grateful for that valuable piece.

Let me, if you will, backtrack very briefly to just assure you that by starting this thread I meant no malice towards you or your efforts to make people confront the reality of UK Paintball and do something about it. I think the amount of effort and continued motivation you have on this subject is fantastic and I think you know that I'm right by your side, both in my small efforts to improve things and my thinking on this issue. I'm not kissing your ass here - just trying to impart my genuine motivations to try and counterbalance the doom and gloom with a bit of positivity so that we can maybe generate some action and inspiration. Believe me when I say I had no ulterior motives. If I've gone about this the wrong way then my apologies, but reading your post makes it worthwhile. You’ve summed it all up so well and given people the solutions to our problems.

Now, back to the present. We are fortunate enough to have your ideas presented to us as the off season approaches and this has to be the ideal time to start making the changes suggested in your short to mid term plan. The off season is naturally the time that teams see the most player transfers and it would be great to see the players taking your advice to heart during this period and team captains encouraging this process of restructuring our player base. So, we all need to keep banging on about this process over the next few months and if everyone does their bit, surely we’ll see some results by the start of next season?

Also, in the off-season, we have the opportunity to sit down with event organizers to try and ensure they are open to the process and actively encouraging it themselves. Your input around that table would be invaluable.

As to your mid-long term plans. Can we not work with a few sites that show the right attitude and a willingness to develop to create a couple of working models? Surely site owners will stand up and take notice if we can present them with some examples on home soil of this new way of generating an income whilst encouraging the development of our sport at the same time?

A natural side-effect of this process may well be the creation of a cohesive and organized effort to develop this model nationwide. I know that’s optimistic, but how else can we get this started?

Interesting stuff – I hope we can all pursue your ideas now and put in to place some workable solutions that will make the changes needed.
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
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Chris, I believe there are a few guys, people like yourself and Sid who truly and passionately believe, as I do, that the future of our sport lies with the successful promotion of tourney ball to the public.

The first steps are simple, we need to collate a list of sites who do uphold this new thinking and who presently provide their customer base with a Sup 'Air facility and a responsible operation.

Once these guys have been identified, we then need to arrange a meeting with the industry guys, I can sort that out easy enough but let me make something quite clear here ...... everybody and anybody who needs to, and will get involved in this, will make money, all except one...and yeah you guessed who that mug is.

I got a job to do with PGi and although I could organize and collate the necessary people from the industry with the right brief and presentation, I am reluctant to compromise my position on PGi by getting involved in something so time consuming purely because some people might say, 'oh come on Pete, do it for UK ball mate, do it for the love of the game, do it for the love of Brit ball'.
Those sort of pleas are now wearing a bit thin with me of late mate.

Take me out of any loop for the minute and we need someone who knows everyone, who has sufficient intellect and drive and has the necessary love for the game, who the industry respect and then he would drive this process forward because I just can't see this being successful unless you have a focal point of operations.

A collective approach with a collective responsibility will flounder in months.

Now if people in the industry (sites and companies) are serious about developing the UK market along the lines I have suggested then they gotta get their act together and create a focal point of operation IE get someone in to do the job.

There are enough people in the industry who will potentially benefit from this enterprise and thus any attendant expense in setting it all up can be shared amongst those parties.

Over to you guys......
 

Iron Lions - Ed

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Oct 16, 2003
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As I have said before, perhaps a DVD running on site, magazines laying around etc,
We run DVDs at our training site when we can for punters and occasionally when we rund a paintball stand at a local event will try and get them running if power is available for a TV but I wonder if maybe an DVD could be produced specifically to be aimed at punters. The stuff we watch on DVD's typically show run through etc which is great but maybe a bit ore focus on showing it as a team sport. e.g more shots of breakouts, communication. Showing tournie ball fields from high end tournies to domestics to show there is a ladder to follow. I'm sure you get the idea. Seems to me a spefic intro to Torney Painball DVD may be more effective than an off the shelf option.