dry firing in the players' tent

[crazzzy]

Well said!

Originally posted by Cube
Whilst I appreciate the need for marshals to have a break and take their masks off maybe we need to look at this in a stricter sense to them as well as to the players.

My main concern would be if say my field finished its game in 2 minutes, we clear the players off and then remove our masks, (our field is clear and safe), the fields around us are still live and there's plenty of examples where balls have gone through netting or clipped bunkers and gone flying. It's an obvious risk that the marshalls would be taking

Personally I agree with the second part of your statement Steve, I think masks are on unless you're in a guaranteed safe area, (the team/spectator areas or the marshalling huts for example) whether you're a player or a marshall, and surely for marshalls the only guarenteed time a field is safe is when there are no games on or around it and the chrony range is completely covered/safe or empty.

I know it's hard work to wear a mask all day, but then when I worked in manufacturing I had to spend 12 hrs working in the heat with full protective gear, hardhat, dustmasks earplugs and safety goggles because the law said I had to. I did a 6 hour shift in a metal box the size of a average garden shed in a respirator FFS, it's part of what you sign up for innit. Like a lot of things it's about allowing people to get away with things.

Taking your mask off between games is allowed because it's never been stomped on, I thinnk we should stomp on it now before there's an accident, I've seen enough pictures in mags and scenes on vids of US players/marshalls wandering around on fields with goggles off and unbagged markers and it's scary stuff.

Maybe if we're talking safety as an absolute we cut NO corners, we bag markers and wear goggles when on field and schedules are adjusted to let marshalls take a break. Marshalls should only remove their masks when in appropriate areas and if they don't follow this they're docked marshalling points, (or pay), for each infraction.

Toughen up on both sides and remove all possible risks of an accident, which is surely everyones aim.

Oh and Steve I do applaud you looking into safety. I especially applaud you for listening to peoples points of view here and letting us get involved. Excuse me being what seems to be picky, but I'm trying to wear two hats and want rules to be clear and correct so they can be rigidly and consistently enforced.

Perhaps this could be like the trigger bounce thread and we'll get a really good resolution, where are the heavy hitters when you want them?

Totally agree!

 

[Jaime Menino]

Concerning the original post.

Yes I also saw a lot of dry firing in the players area, the guys I saw where doing it with no barrel and no loader. So the chance of hurting someone was only in case of damaging a ear drum, because they where doing loud noise.

We asked some of the guys to this at least covering the front of the marker cause of the noise, it becomes anoying after a whyle, and especially if allmost all the teams are doing it.
Saturday a small "contest" of noise happened in the staging area.
And that was loud and irritating. But knowing the moral of the players was down low, I didn´t felt any problem with the "contest".

About barrel bags, I find this very mandory thing. But the putting it after the elimination can be a tricky stituation.
Most of the times the hands are for sinalling that you are out and protect from bonus balls.
I usually deliver the marker in the floor with the barrelbag on But only put it on when I´m clear of the field and the lines of paint. I do this in any place I play.
Issues like masks on when in the field at any time should be more important, has even a barrel bag can have a flaw, and some debris after the first shot can hit the eyes or any other sensitive area.

My 2 cents

Cheers
Jaime Menino

 

[crazzzy]

Originally posted by Jaime Menino
Concerning the original post.

Issues like masks on when in the field at any time should be more important, has even a barrel bag can have a flaw, and some debris after the first shot can hit the eyes or any other sensitive area.

My 2 cents

Cheers
Jaime Menino

Very valid point I must say, and something the rules committee should consider. I have seen on many occasions that people accidentally fire their marker and the barrelbag comes off! Now, say that you happen to pull the trigger twice, or even (God forbid) you get a trigger bounce. With the bag off of the barrel from your first shot and people walking around without masks on, you have put eveyone in a very dangerous situation. I strongly believe considering this point that we should never allow referees to remove their goggles unless their field is empty and they are at a safe distance from other fields.

I would suggest that you add the rule about barrelbags being used until refs say you can remove them, and keep the current rules concerning goggles on at all times but in the netted ref-tent!

over and out

 

[Wadidiz]

Netting between the fields is usually as good as other netting in my experience and it should be.

The order that I've suggested and seen work is NO QUESTION a much safer all round way to handle it IMO.

It is also fairer because with the system I'm suggesting players are held responsible for keeping barrel bags in until signalled otherwise. With the old way the only way we're going to get safe again is to start penalizing marshalls. Marshalls already have enough of a hard time without that. My system is realistic; the other is not.

Ask anyone who was at the Nordic Series three weekends ago. Ask those who reffed with me on the JT field at Huntington Beach.

Then there is another factor: the need for "maintenance personnel" to wipe down bunkers, inflate or deflate bunkers, re-peg, etc.

Concerning the weakness of barrel bags, a new standard is coming forth that will require a barrel blocking device, a combination of a barrel plug and a barrel bag; something that is inserted into the end of a barrel and is held on by straps. That will be much safer.

The main thing is that the requirement for proper deployment of barrel blocking devices will be strictly enforced.

Steve

PS. I'll repeat: my intepretation of the rule about putting on your barrel bag after elimination is put it on after you are well on your way off, maybe when you're entering the dead box. So that shouldn't be a hang-up in this discussion. Change the wording of that rule if neccessary.

SM

 

[Robbo]

Steve, after reading some of your replies lately, it would seem as though you are not only answering for the Millennium on the subject of X-Ball but seem to be answering now on Rules etc.
Are you now the official rules spokesperson and or general spokesperson for the Millennium Board ?

 

[crazzzy]

Suggestion for barrel bags

Ok, if you come up with a new type of barrel bag that is safer than the ones used today, then go ahead. I would like to come with a suggestion for the new type though, as I feel there is a much safer way of doing it than the one you described (I might have misunderstood your description though).

If the new design is an insertable piece that is then strapped on, it could, and I say could cus I have not seen the design, face the same problems with falling off if not strapped on tightly by the player.

Now, the safest way to do a barrelbag in my eyes would be to make a barrelbag in which the acual bag is longer. If the bag goes the lenght of the actual barrel and you have a strap which is short it will simply not have the possibilities to fall off!!! The player will have to first put the bag over the barrel to be able to strap it, which in its turn means that once a shot is fired the bag will only "bounce out" a couple of centimeters but not long enough for it to fall off! I have seen these type of bags out there, and I think this is the best solution for a barrel blocking device.

Another thing with this type of bag is that you will not only keep, but actually increase the advertise space on the bags, something very popular today.

 

[Wadidiz]

To recap:

This unholy, unsafe combination of unmasked people and unbagged markers MUST be stopped NOW. We can't afford someone losing an eye and we losing our sport.

There are only two alternatives (that I can think of) that will really get the job done concerning the on-field situation:

1. Allow masks off and strictly enforce barrel bags on before and after the games (see complete proposal above). That means enforcing the bags-on rule with penalty points or elimination from next game.

2. Require masks on at all times for everyone on-field (not in a netted goggle-off zone). That means handing out penalty points consistently to marshalls and players who don't comply. That means taking away points earned for marshalling. But what do you do with non-point-earning personnel, such as workers who clean and maintain the field? Or non-point-earning marshalls? Slap them with monetary fines?

I think it is pretty clear that the first alternative is by far the most workable, realistic, humane, safe, comfortable and smooth. But it will demand re-education and strict enforcement with penalties to begin with. And making sure that the netting is totally adequate.

Again I'll give the example: X-ball before our strict penalties for barrel bags off in the players' pit area were a dangerous accident-about-to-happen, with an occasional official coming through and admonishing players to put bags on (to no more than a few seconds effect). After we introduced the warning/penalty system habits miraculously changed! The American team behaved perfectly. They didn't even need a warning. And that was at the first games.

Steve

 

[Robbo]

Steve, have you got a problem with that question or are you just being rude ?

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by Robbo
Steve, after reading some of your replies lately, it would seem as though you are not only answering for the Millennium on the subject of X-Ball but seem to be answering now on Rules etc.
Are you now the official rules spokesperson and or general spokesperson for the Millennium Board ?

No! Please don't misunderstand. I am merely expressing my opinions. The responsible people are having a look at these issues and I certainly will try to influence decisions that I have strong opinions about. I'm just expressing what is being discussed.

Joern Windler is the rules commissioner.

Thanks for bringing this up and letting me clarify that.

Steve

PS. Pete, I don't understand your question about being rude. Which question? The one I'm answering now? I might have missed it while writing my last post. Sometimes I can't stay with the dialog because I have to tend to my regular job.

SM

 

[Robbo]

Understood completely, I didn't know whether or not they had asked you to become their 'official' spokesperson.