Double elimination seeding blues

[Wadidiz]

I have been working on a double elimination schedule for the EXL just for fun. I'd appreciate opinions about the conventional way to seed teams and what I think is reasonable for EXL application.

Conventional seeding gives major advantages to the highest ranking teams. Team 1 plays their first game against the lowest ranking team and the schedule continues like that. The highest ranking teams also get to play less games to win compared to the lowest ranking teams, if the schedule doesn't allow an even number of games. And each team gets the same number of games only if there are "even" groups of eight (8, 16, 24, 36, etc.).

I have reworked a schedule for 10 teams and 12 teams according to what I consider a more reasonable way to seed. I have all the teams seeded so that they play their first rounds against the team most closely matching their ranking.

Why? Because Team 1 has a far greater statistic probability to beat Team 8 compared to Team 2. Why should the highest ranking team be given a warm-up game that is very likely to send the lowest ranking team away with their first of two possible eliminations? Why not have all teams place their closest competitor in the first rounds?

And please don't tell me "Because that's just the way it's done," because that is a non-answer.

Also the schedules I came up with give the higher ranking teams one more game to complete to win rather than inflicting that on the lowest ranking teams.

Another point is that the highest ranking teams (as it looks today) tend to be able to afford the extra games compared to the lowest.

I think it is CLEARLY the fairest thing to do to not give the highest ranking teams a double, even triple, -whammy advantage.

Whadda y'all think? And keep an open mind, please.

Steve

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Wadidiz

1--Why? Because Team 1 has a far greater statistic probability to beat Team 8 compared to Team 2.
2--Why should the highest ranking team be given a warm-up game that is very likely to send the lowest ranking team away with their first of two possible eliminations?
3--Why not have all teams place their closest competitor in the first rounds
4--Also the schedules I came up with give the higher ranking teams one more game to complete to win rather than inflicting that on the lowest ranking teams.

Steve, where to begin.
1--So?
2--because seeding is predicated on prior performance, ie; each team "earned" the position they start in.
3--because the result of your idea is to reward inferior play and penalize superior play, in which case you might as well simply seed everyone randomly every event. That would be fairer than your notion.
4--re-read 3. Typically in double elimination teams in the loser's bracket play more matches. Nothing unfair about that. Losing should make it harder to win.

 

[Gislo]

Excel files as requested by Steve:
http://hem.fyristorg.com/paintball/steve/

 

[sjt19]

I think.....

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff

Something like this:

The 3 or 4 teams knocked out after losing 2 games in a row plays of in a round robin system for placements.

Teams knocked out after winning 1 and losing 2 games play off.

Teams knocked out after winning 2 and losing 2 play off.

I know what i think makes no difference, but i think that this would be an excellent idea.

Personally i think that the presence of the NXL teams in the league next year will undermine the success of the EXL. After all, Xball was developed in order to ensure that the best team wins after an hour game and the accumulation of game points. This renmoves the element of luck that had previously had an effect on vital games. However, the inclusion of 2 NXL teams in the equation at each event will throw the element of luck right back in to the equation, as success will largely depend on which teams draw the NXL'ers at each leg of the EXL. Even in the NXL there are varying levels of skill, with those mastering Xball and those being less successful at it. EXL teams do not get to play the NXL league, why should it be any different the other way round? If it was just 8 teams, then as everyone has said, the schedule will be FAR more workable, without the element of 'byes' and such.

Sam

 

[Robbo]

Re: I think.....

Originally posted by sjt19
I know what i think makes no difference, but i think that this would be an excellent idea.

Personally i think that the presence of the NXL teams in the league next year will undermine the success of the EXL. After all, Xball was developed in order to ensure that the best team wins after an hour game and the accumulation of game points. This renmoves the element of luck that had previously had an effect on vital games. However, the inclusion of 2 NXL teams in the equation at each event will throw the element of luck right back in to the equation, as success will largely depend on which teams draw the NXL'ers at each leg of the EXL. Even in the NXL there are varying levels of skill, with those mastering Xball and those being less successful at it. EXL teams do not get to play the NXL league, why should it be any different the other way round? If it was just 8 teams, then as everyone has said, the schedule will be FAR more workable, without the element of 'byes' and such.

Sam

Sam, I been harping on about this in many a post and as of yet, I haven't really heard a cogent argument for having Yank teams in a Euro league, it just seems ludicrous to me.
Steve Baldwin's reason for having them in was to appease the promotional interests of Dick Clark but the more I think about this point, the less credible it is.
Any media promotion that Dick Clark may wanna do (bearing in mind there are no plans to film the 2004 EXL) can be done at the World Cup stage where it is going to be filmed.

I think a few fone calls might be in order to see what Sergey and a few others think.

Edit or rather an addendum - I just ad a thought- the emphasis that has now been placed upon the EXL having a Yank flavour may well have its roots in appeasing the American teams or rather players.
It's well recognised the Yank players love coming across here nicking all the mullah and pissing back off over the pond.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if their inclusion has more to do with keeping their players happy than any benefit we may derive.
I should have thought of this before
When things don't seem to stack up right, there's always a reason

Thoughts ?

 

[sjt19]

Re: Re: I think.....

Originally posted by Robbo
It's well recognised the Yank players love coming across here nicking all the mullah and pissing back off over the pond.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if their inclusion has more to do with keeping their players happy than any benefit we may derive.

I thought of this yesterday, while was trying to work out the benefits of Yank teams in the EXL from a NXL players point of view, and an EXL players point of view. I remember reading and reading about these NXL guys complaining about the fact that they have no money, and no prozes, and no chance to go to Europe, and i wondered if Richmond had thought that the birth of the EXL would be a perfect arena for the NXL players to solve these issues. But on the other hand, did you not report that it was in fact the MS board that had raised the issue of there being 2 NXL teams at each leg? In which case it was not something that Richmond wanted in his contract clauses for the EXL. And just thought that to agree to this request from the MS would alleviate some of the pressures on him from the NXL camps, so he allowed it despite not originally considering it as an option.

The only people who really know why the NXL are included are those people on the MS board, and Richmond.

But i doubt that the NXL teams will be happy with this concession allowing them to play in Europe once. After all, it still means that they only get to play 6 events in the year. And once the costs of flying the entire team over to the EXL, entry fees, paint bills, hotel bills, car hire, etc.... i doubt whether the priize money will benefit the player is that much. After all, most of the NXL teams will be bringing over, i would guess, around 14/15 players, how far would the prize money go after it has been split 15 ways? The answer is not very far.

What are the chances that an NXL team will win every leg of the EXL next year? I think that they are very high, a thought that saddens me

In my opinion, if they are keeping the NXL for the NXL teams, they should keep the EXL for the EXL teams.

What i envisage happening, is that the teams that come in the top 4 of the EXL and qualify for the World Cup in Orlando will not neccessarily be the teams that have played the best over the 4 events, but rather will be the teams that manage to get the least games against the travelling NXL teams. i.e if one team in the EXL plays the NXL teams 4 times over the season, and others only play the NXl teams 2 or 3 times over the season, they are in a far better position to do well in the series. That is just plain wrong.

 

[Baca Loco]

raehl lite: an interpretation by BL

Originally posted by Robbo
Edit or rather an addendum - I just ad a thought- the emphasis that has now been placed upon the EXL having a Yank flavour may well have its roots in appeasing the American teams or rather players.

Thoughts ?

Originally posted by Your Humble Moder8or
Any talk of two NXL teams showing up per EXL event has nothing to do with the competitions themselves and everything to do with temporarily pacifying upset NXL ballers who want more choices (and Euro trips.)

Originally appeared last year on 12/24 in MLT thread by Magnus HC.

 

[Robbo]

raehl lite: an interpretation by BL

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Originally appeared last year on 12/24 in MLT thread by Magnus HC.

Paul, I have either contracted Alzheimers or even worse..not read all of your posts...I will seek advice to remedy either situation

 

[Kyle - Shock Unit 04]

Re: I think.....

Originally posted by sjt19
I know what i think makes no difference, but i think that this would be an excellent idea.

Personally i think that the presence of the NXL teams in the league next year will undermine the success of the EXL. After all, Xball was developed in order to ensure that the best team wins after an hour game and the accumulation of game points. This renmoves the element of luck that had previously had an effect on vital games. However, the inclusion of 2 NXL teams in the equation at each event will throw the element of luck right back in to the equation, as success will largely depend on which teams draw the NXL'ers at each leg of the EXL. Even in the NXL there are varying levels of skill, with those mastering Xball and those being less successful at it. EXL teams do not get to play the NXL league, why should it be any different the other way round? If it was just 8 teams, then as everyone has said, the schedule will be FAR more workable, without the element of 'byes' and such.

Sam

i definatly whole heartedly 100% agree, i also think that magnus' post on mlt is correct, if this is meant to be as much like tha nxl as poss then why are there nxl teams comin over.

just ma 2ps

kyle

 

[TNG]

The nxl teams are going over to europe to keep the players happy. As for the prize money they give in europe, compared to the psp and nppl its crap. The U.S. teams don't come over because they're going to win fat loads of cash.