Do people here care less about the major leagues these days?
- Thread starter Ash - GI Sportz
- Start date
On the topic of team insights, I have just re-found a rather grainy audio file that was a result of a bit of messing around we did a while ago. I've uploaded it to youtube, so have a listen and let me know if this is the kind of insight you guys are referring to.
To give it a little context this was recorded on route to Paintfest earlier this year (end of July) and is myself talking to Kent Roye, the DYE media guy about Nexus with DYE Tech Richard Neale chipping in as well. As you will notice we didnt know Rich was recording at first either. Kent's initial question to me got missed off the start - he had asked me 'Why are Nexus under performing at the Millenniums and not winning events yet' to which i was taking an age to word my answer, hence why his opening line is 'this is why you cant interview Ash Chaplen'. The rest makes enough sense after that. (apologies for sound quality but i think the content is worth it)
I've also dug up the links to the 2011 Nexus video series for those who havent seen them before, or who just wanna watch them again.
1 -
2 -
3/1 -
3/2 -
4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ikjq4N1EUI&feature=c4-overview&list=UUPR6KPgfsrtWIHdH7oMvopA
And finally the trailer for the episode that was never made...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQpaCUiIIso&feature=c4-overview&list=UUPR6KPgfsrtWIHdH7oMvopA
To give it a little context this was recorded on route to Paintfest earlier this year (end of July) and is myself talking to Kent Roye, the DYE media guy about Nexus with DYE Tech Richard Neale chipping in as well. As you will notice we didnt know Rich was recording at first either. Kent's initial question to me got missed off the start - he had asked me 'Why are Nexus under performing at the Millenniums and not winning events yet' to which i was taking an age to word my answer, hence why his opening line is 'this is why you cant interview Ash Chaplen'. The rest makes enough sense after that. (apologies for sound quality but i think the content is worth it)
I've also dug up the links to the 2011 Nexus video series for those who havent seen them before, or who just wanna watch them again.
1 -
And finally the trailer for the episode that was never made...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQpaCUiIIso&feature=c4-overview&list=UUPR6KPgfsrtWIHdH7oMvopA
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I've already watched the whole New Beginnings series in the last week again, but that talk video you uploaded, really was quite interesting. I guess the difficulty with doing things like that, is stepping on toes. It's great to see stuff like that but at the same time, I can understand an unwillingness for people to say the brutal truth of the matter.
Obviously we're not trying to comment on the content on that video right now, but yes that kind of thing is exactly what would generate more talk. At the end of the day, anything that contains "new" content will interest people enough to generate conversation. An insight into a team is great, but realistically you can't keep posting up every conversation you have to try and force people to engage. It almost needs to be something external as @Kevin Winter said above. Something to drive the conversation.
Obviously we're not trying to comment on the content on that video right now, but yes that kind of thing is exactly what would generate more talk. At the end of the day, anything that contains "new" content will interest people enough to generate conversation. An insight into a team is great, but realistically you can't keep posting up every conversation you have to try and force people to engage. It almost needs to be something external as @Kevin Winter said above. Something to drive the conversation.
That's exactly it Ash, the videos give you an insight into the team as well as a really fun cinematic to watch. The interview with Kent is amazing - that's the real inside scoop! If I listened to that before Chantilly I would have paid closer attention to the Nexus games - looking at who you put out into what roles with more intent instead of just seeing 5 guys out there in Nexus jerseys, I would have been looking for whether you put Marcello or Shaun as the 2 behind George.
Games are more interesting to watch when you have that unique insight into the way a team works and the decision that a captain/coach has to make on the day. If a team were to do an interview like this before an event and then after an event, people will have things to watch for and will be looking more intently at any roster decisions. People can discuss whether or not you should have put Marcello in the 2 or the 1 on that layout and argue with each other about it. They can then see your interview after the event and see whether or not you feel the same or see if there were any factors behind closed doors that caused problems - people might not realize that someone twisted an ankle or lost their head in the pits causing you to make a weird decision on the fly.
I think it would also be useful from a coach's point of view to answer these questions publically - it's hard to collect your thoughts properly when you're stewing on a loss, but when you have to explain yourself your problems and issues may become more apparent on reflection.
Games are more interesting to watch when you have that unique insight into the way a team works and the decision that a captain/coach has to make on the day. If a team were to do an interview like this before an event and then after an event, people will have things to watch for and will be looking more intently at any roster decisions. People can discuss whether or not you should have put Marcello in the 2 or the 1 on that layout and argue with each other about it. They can then see your interview after the event and see whether or not you feel the same or see if there were any factors behind closed doors that caused problems - people might not realize that someone twisted an ankle or lost their head in the pits causing you to make a weird decision on the fly.
I think it would also be useful from a coach's point of view to answer these questions publically - it's hard to collect your thoughts properly when you're stewing on a loss, but when you have to explain yourself your problems and issues may become more apparent on reflection.
Cracking Videos!
I think that's a major part of what's needed - more story-telling and involved media output. At the moment, put millenium paintball into your tube and you'll get dozens of versions of the same video - a few artsy opening shots (sun through the netting, potting up, crowds, may a timelapse of the venue filling, then dizzying mix of 5 sec clips - a few breakouts, moves etc, all to some bloody dub-step. No storyline, no engagement. If you don't manage to watch the entire webcast, then it's hard to know what happened at each event! A decent highlights package, with commentary and interviews, and written match reports on the mills website would be a good starter? ETVs "The Roster" is another great example of the sort of video we need more of IMO. Knowing what went into that Cup win made it all the sweeter to watch...
Also, the fact that players are masked in the events - unavoidable, but it makes it hard to follow the individual players and so on. The PSP graphic showing players names and eliminations on the side of screen is a big boost for this.
The fantasy league from PSP was also good - generated a little banter on facebook and mad eit more interesting to follow
I think that's a major part of what's needed - more story-telling and involved media output. At the moment, put millenium paintball into your tube and you'll get dozens of versions of the same video - a few artsy opening shots (sun through the netting, potting up, crowds, may a timelapse of the venue filling, then dizzying mix of 5 sec clips - a few breakouts, moves etc, all to some bloody dub-step. No storyline, no engagement. If you don't manage to watch the entire webcast, then it's hard to know what happened at each event! A decent highlights package, with commentary and interviews, and written match reports on the mills website would be a good starter? ETVs "The Roster" is another great example of the sort of video we need more of IMO. Knowing what went into that Cup win made it all the sweeter to watch...
Also, the fact that players are masked in the events - unavoidable, but it makes it hard to follow the individual players and so on. The PSP graphic showing players names and eliminations on the side of screen is a big boost for this.
The fantasy league from PSP was also good - generated a little banter on facebook and mad eit more interesting to follow
Really interesting read so far!
In terms of Millenniums, there definitely seems to be a lack of players and teams wanting to take that step. Without a doubt we have talented and able teams in the UK taking 3 of the 5 series titles this year and multiple podiums at all events, impressive considering the low ratio of UK teams competing in the Mills this year. The difficulty enticing UK teams out to the Mills to me is that you need at least 6 players (realistically, at the least) that are all available at the same time, that have the disposable income, that have the holidays available from work, that want to travel abroad together, that consider it "worth the effort" and that want to play paintball. You need all those factors to be true at the same time to even have a team to put into an event which can prove very difficult.
This season is the first full season I've played of the Milleniums and I've loved every second of it. Its the first season I've really taken a lot of interest in all the divisions but this will be in large part due to being at the events. The first Millennium I went to (purely spectating) was Campaign in 2011, amazing weekend because of the friends I spent the weekend with but also because of the high level paintball I got to watch live for the first time. Firm won Div 1, Disruption won SPL, Nexus beat Dynasty 5-0 etc. etc. Quality weekend of watching paintball and this was really the trigger for me wanting to compete in the Mills and hopefully get to a stage where I can be on the field playing in front of a crowd of spectators rather than spectating.
The comradery between UK teams at the Mills is amazing and I didn't even notice this until I started competing. It feels like the UK against the rest of Europe/World and every British team wants every other British team to do the best they can. Even teams that compete in the same division offer help to each other where they can, offer help in the pits, support from the stands, it really is a unique atmosphere to competing in domestic tournaments. I think thats been key this year, especially as the majority compete against each other in the Elite league at CPPS, but compete all across the divisions at Mills.
If asked if I would compete in the Mills for an entire season again I would absolutely say yes. Its been the first emotional rollercoaster (lol cliche fag) I've experienced playing a team 'sport', from a massive high in St Tropez, absolutely gutting end to Bitburg, bitter sweet finish to Campaign, and then winning World Cup, its not been boring for minute. But I can absolutely categorically see why people aren't interested in playing Millenniums. I'm sure I worked out that with travel costs, accomodation, entry fees and paint, and bearing in mind we played the maximum number of games we could this year (reaching finals at every event), in pure paintball time alone it cost me about £15-20 PER POINT, and obviously average cost per point goes up the less points you play. So if you look at it purely as a time spent playing paintball then holy f**k thats expensive. But for the times I spent with mates, the ups and downs at every event, playing paintball and the time in between, every event has been worth every penny to me.
In terms of the domestic high level/Elite leagues, I think there has been more going on in terms of support of newer players than most realise. The biggest contribution I've seen has been towards the Breakout division run at CPPS on Saturday mornings. Where experienced players have been on site at that time of the Saturday (and theres more than you might care to think!), Ains has offered their services to the teams playing the Breakout div to offer guidance and tips between matches, and to offer "mini-clinics" free-of-charge to any teams that want it after the divisions games finish. There has no doubt been other contributions at other times but that isn't to say more couldn't be done across the board! I think its a combination of top level teams being approachable and newer teams wanting to learn, blame doesn't lie solely with either party.
I think a major contributing factor to the lack of interest in players wanting to (or at least perceiving as wanting to) reach the top levels of domestic paintball is the intimidation/respect factor shown between teams at this level. I'm as guilty as any other player in that division of shooting in an intimidating fashion, but when you know every player on the other start gate would do the same to you it makes you think twice whether you would shoot them in the pack or higher up! The number of close-range bunkerings/muggings etc. isn't even the issue, its the lack of respect shown by too many players to other players and to referees. Some of the ways I've seen refs talked to by players that really should be setting examples this year has been absolutely disgusting. Having a civil two-way heated discussion is one thing, calling a ref every name under the sun for a "bad call" shouldn't be acceptable but for whatever reason it's allowed to slide.
Have I tried to set an example this year? To an extent, yes. Do I want to set an even higher standard next year? Absolutely. Will it make a blind bit of difference? Probably not. Ultimately whats happen on the fields with the most exposure gets slowly filtered down to other divisions, and if players see that the example is to shoot a guy 5 times in the head when he has no chance of shooting back, or effing and blinding at a ref for pulling a penalty, we're going to leave ourselves with a very intimidating sport to play and referee (even moreso than it already is) and thats only going to make life more difficult.
I find it interesting that others have mentioned they love the idea of going to tournaments knowing they'll get to play against pros. From a lot of experience this year, its a bitter sweet experience to say the least! For us it was awesome to play Nexus/Disruption/Defiance/Tigers/Firm at CPPS because realistically we weren't going to place very high and our core aim was Mills, so playing these guys really sets your standards very high as to how you have to play and you learn from them every single point, and when we went to the Mills this made life much easier for us! But the skill disparity, even between ourselves and the podium teams in the Elite div is big, and paintball is too expensive to pay your money to get slapped all day long.
On the point of teams putting out media to make them seem more human and finding out what makes them tick, I think it has to work both ways. I think teams would put out more material (where possible) if there was interest in it and it helped generate support for the team. But what level does a team have to compete at for people to care about supporting them? We've had absolutely amazing support (and I mean way and above my wildest dreams) this year from loads of guys at Millennium events, and playing in front of a crowd that applauds points and matches you win is an incredible feeling when its not something you're used to. Culminating at World Cup playing in front of 3 grand stands, each probably 60-75% full and on the webcast was out of this world. Thats an experience I may or may not get to repeat, and it certainly won't happen domestically, not for a good few years at least! The "likes" on our team fan page went up massively off the back of this which makes me think along with reading this thread, perhaps there is more we could give back to people that take time to show an interest in our team other than posting up when a gun is for sale and to thank our sponsors (who actually genuinely have been amazing to us all year and previously!).
A hearty thank you to anyone who bothers to read all of that.
TL: DR, Mills is expensive, Elite league like to shoot each other in the head, winning Mills events f**king rocks
In terms of Millenniums, there definitely seems to be a lack of players and teams wanting to take that step. Without a doubt we have talented and able teams in the UK taking 3 of the 5 series titles this year and multiple podiums at all events, impressive considering the low ratio of UK teams competing in the Mills this year. The difficulty enticing UK teams out to the Mills to me is that you need at least 6 players (realistically, at the least) that are all available at the same time, that have the disposable income, that have the holidays available from work, that want to travel abroad together, that consider it "worth the effort" and that want to play paintball. You need all those factors to be true at the same time to even have a team to put into an event which can prove very difficult.
This season is the first full season I've played of the Milleniums and I've loved every second of it. Its the first season I've really taken a lot of interest in all the divisions but this will be in large part due to being at the events. The first Millennium I went to (purely spectating) was Campaign in 2011, amazing weekend because of the friends I spent the weekend with but also because of the high level paintball I got to watch live for the first time. Firm won Div 1, Disruption won SPL, Nexus beat Dynasty 5-0 etc. etc. Quality weekend of watching paintball and this was really the trigger for me wanting to compete in the Mills and hopefully get to a stage where I can be on the field playing in front of a crowd of spectators rather than spectating.
The comradery between UK teams at the Mills is amazing and I didn't even notice this until I started competing. It feels like the UK against the rest of Europe/World and every British team wants every other British team to do the best they can. Even teams that compete in the same division offer help to each other where they can, offer help in the pits, support from the stands, it really is a unique atmosphere to competing in domestic tournaments. I think thats been key this year, especially as the majority compete against each other in the Elite league at CPPS, but compete all across the divisions at Mills.
If asked if I would compete in the Mills for an entire season again I would absolutely say yes. Its been the first emotional rollercoaster (lol cliche fag) I've experienced playing a team 'sport', from a massive high in St Tropez, absolutely gutting end to Bitburg, bitter sweet finish to Campaign, and then winning World Cup, its not been boring for minute. But I can absolutely categorically see why people aren't interested in playing Millenniums. I'm sure I worked out that with travel costs, accomodation, entry fees and paint, and bearing in mind we played the maximum number of games we could this year (reaching finals at every event), in pure paintball time alone it cost me about £15-20 PER POINT, and obviously average cost per point goes up the less points you play. So if you look at it purely as a time spent playing paintball then holy f**k thats expensive. But for the times I spent with mates, the ups and downs at every event, playing paintball and the time in between, every event has been worth every penny to me.
In terms of the domestic high level/Elite leagues, I think there has been more going on in terms of support of newer players than most realise. The biggest contribution I've seen has been towards the Breakout division run at CPPS on Saturday mornings. Where experienced players have been on site at that time of the Saturday (and theres more than you might care to think!), Ains has offered their services to the teams playing the Breakout div to offer guidance and tips between matches, and to offer "mini-clinics" free-of-charge to any teams that want it after the divisions games finish. There has no doubt been other contributions at other times but that isn't to say more couldn't be done across the board! I think its a combination of top level teams being approachable and newer teams wanting to learn, blame doesn't lie solely with either party.
I think a major contributing factor to the lack of interest in players wanting to (or at least perceiving as wanting to) reach the top levels of domestic paintball is the intimidation/respect factor shown between teams at this level. I'm as guilty as any other player in that division of shooting in an intimidating fashion, but when you know every player on the other start gate would do the same to you it makes you think twice whether you would shoot them in the pack or higher up! The number of close-range bunkerings/muggings etc. isn't even the issue, its the lack of respect shown by too many players to other players and to referees. Some of the ways I've seen refs talked to by players that really should be setting examples this year has been absolutely disgusting. Having a civil two-way heated discussion is one thing, calling a ref every name under the sun for a "bad call" shouldn't be acceptable but for whatever reason it's allowed to slide.
Have I tried to set an example this year? To an extent, yes. Do I want to set an even higher standard next year? Absolutely. Will it make a blind bit of difference? Probably not. Ultimately whats happen on the fields with the most exposure gets slowly filtered down to other divisions, and if players see that the example is to shoot a guy 5 times in the head when he has no chance of shooting back, or effing and blinding at a ref for pulling a penalty, we're going to leave ourselves with a very intimidating sport to play and referee (even moreso than it already is) and thats only going to make life more difficult.
I find it interesting that others have mentioned they love the idea of going to tournaments knowing they'll get to play against pros. From a lot of experience this year, its a bitter sweet experience to say the least! For us it was awesome to play Nexus/Disruption/Defiance/Tigers/Firm at CPPS because realistically we weren't going to place very high and our core aim was Mills, so playing these guys really sets your standards very high as to how you have to play and you learn from them every single point, and when we went to the Mills this made life much easier for us! But the skill disparity, even between ourselves and the podium teams in the Elite div is big, and paintball is too expensive to pay your money to get slapped all day long.
On the point of teams putting out media to make them seem more human and finding out what makes them tick, I think it has to work both ways. I think teams would put out more material (where possible) if there was interest in it and it helped generate support for the team. But what level does a team have to compete at for people to care about supporting them? We've had absolutely amazing support (and I mean way and above my wildest dreams) this year from loads of guys at Millennium events, and playing in front of a crowd that applauds points and matches you win is an incredible feeling when its not something you're used to. Culminating at World Cup playing in front of 3 grand stands, each probably 60-75% full and on the webcast was out of this world. Thats an experience I may or may not get to repeat, and it certainly won't happen domestically, not for a good few years at least! The "likes" on our team fan page went up massively off the back of this which makes me think along with reading this thread, perhaps there is more we could give back to people that take time to show an interest in our team other than posting up when a gun is for sale and to thank our sponsors (who actually genuinely have been amazing to us all year and previously!).
A hearty thank you to anyone who bothers to read all of that.
TL: DR, Mills is expensive, Elite league like to shoot each other in the head, winning Mills events f**king rocks
This thread seems to have generated a few tangents from the original question, i.e. do people care less about the major leagues than they used to?
In my opinion the answer to that original question is no. In fact, I think it might even have gone the other way, and more people actually show an interest now than ever before.
Mostly thanks to PBA and the great job they do with:
Around the time of the major events, I think, there is more 'buzz' than ever before about the results and goings on. The problem I guess is that this place isn't seen as the place to come and chat about the goings on anymore, everything is much more fragmented with people just posting there opinions or scores on Facebook/Twitter etc. This isn't just a problem isolated to paintball though, the advent of social media has certainly seen a downturn in the number of people actively using forums in general.
In my opinion the answer to that original question is no. In fact, I think it might even have gone the other way, and more people actually show an interest now than ever before.
Mostly thanks to PBA and the great job they do with:
- the webcast (although I do think at times the commentary can be very formulaic, even dumbed down. I would like to see more detailed analysis of breakouts/moves and why a point evolved in a certain way)
- statistics
- and more recently the fantasy paintball.
Around the time of the major events, I think, there is more 'buzz' than ever before about the results and goings on. The problem I guess is that this place isn't seen as the place to come and chat about the goings on anymore, everything is much more fragmented with people just posting there opinions or scores on Facebook/Twitter etc. This isn't just a problem isolated to paintball though, the advent of social media has certainly seen a downturn in the number of people actively using forums in general.