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DIV 1 Reffing shenanigans...

vlad.nk

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Jul 24, 2007
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But I think I see another culprit which hits non-ref teams in Div1 against the contract and which further makes their season position worse. And here I think it is the problem and breaking the contract on another level. I do not know if it was already mentioned, sorry if I say something known.

Simply, awarding 100 points in 4 events has more weight then in 5 events and it means all 15 teams IMHO received a significant gain. Additionaly Millennium de-facto added 3 ref teams into scoring (I suppose it is against contract) which further worsen position to non-ref teams. In other words 3 more 1st places were introduced into the Div1 league scoring.

I believe that the only real solution is to pay teams who ref in Paris any other would cause more mess then the current one in my opinion like unfairness in different aspects.
 

vlad.nk

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Jul 24, 2007
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Cyd, you are right, in other words that earning Paris points is hidden in adding 3 more ref teams into the scoring.
 

Chicago

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Jan 31, 2005
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Chicago. With all due respect you are talking about changing the way ref points are awarded across the board. That is a bigger and wider issue.
It just depends whether you think it's worse to have a mid-season change to a regime that is actually fair or worse to carry on with a system that is not fair.

Where "fair" means the end-of-season standings reflect each team's actual on-field performance.
 

Chicago

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Simply, awarding 100 points in 4 events has more weight then in 5 events and it means all 15 teams IMHO received a significant gain. Additionaly Millennium de-facto added 3 ref teams into scoring (I suppose it is against contract) which further worsen position to non-ref teams. In other words 3 more 1st places were introduced into the Div1 league scoring.
It's worse than that. The teams who got the three Paris reffing scores get to wipe out their lowest score after playing 4 events, while all the other reffing teams MUST take all the scores from the three events they play.

So the Paris teams have an even LARGER advantage than the other 12 reffing teams do.
 

vlad.nk

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Jul 24, 2007
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Are you sure? I thought they get to wipe out their lowest score in Malaga and Bitburg only and it will not change with next events. It is closer to using an average with an advantage they do not have to change Paris points with next events.

If it is the case I do not see a reason why they do not use average and additionaly maximaze the gain for Paris reffing.
 

vlad.nk

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Jul 24, 2007
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Hi Markie, That train of thought is exactly why I suggested only the top four results should count towards the season. I completely understand that some teams did not field their strongest squad for Paris and that was why I suggested only four highest scores from the five events.
I'm sorry to play devil's advocate again but I believe all arguments should be heard early before challenging MS as it is how they could argue with you. I'm going to try to show that 4of5 feature does not give any advantage to teams who does not choose Paris score and have valid arguments against changing back to a scoring event. And what problems it can cause.

If unpaid refs are used in a division then best 4 of 5 feature brings 3 more ref teams into the scoring again as these will choose ref points for sure. As we can see these 3 additional ref teams alter scores significantly. You have 4 events, 15 ref teams, 4 1st places while it should be 4 events, 12 ref teams, 4 1st places... (even still with the bias for ref teams against the contracted scoring system). All non-ref teams will suffer by this again.

Fair to note, even ref teams suffer of this but less and if All Russians Moscow would be reffing and win the rest of the events there would be only 2 added ref teams into scoring.

The proposed solution is more fair for teams who would choose Paris result compared to the current situation.

Said the above, 4of5 feature does not help to teams who have valid arguments against changing back to a scoring event and they do not choose Paris event, they get nothing. And they get even worse situation than now. Their playing performance still would have to challenge the same scoring system like now and additionaly other teams who would received higher probability a better result. In other words the proposed system trades higher fairness for top placed Paris teams with an even lower fairness with teams who will scrap the Paris result. Right now it is unfair for 32 teams against 3 ref teams but 32 teams are on a fair basis between each other. What is more fair? The final fairness highly depends on a season outcome and how much teams will think they could not make a good result in Paris because they handled it as a non-scoring event.

Realisticaly, till you will get the proposed solution applied some teams will start to see worsening of their position and it will make more noice with arguments that they handled Paris as non-scoring event just to defend their previous better position. Additionaly even you would apply it imediately anybody can count the score after the season and see the impact on their position and place the strong argument that they handled the Paris as a non-scoring event and changing it back to a scoring event is not acceptable. Imagine a team who will find he is delegating or miss SPL promotion because of this. You would have to get agreement with all teams asap before the next event, later it could be harder and harder to convice some teams.

Anyway, changing a scoring event to a non-scoring and then back to a scoring event would make this season epic:)

All above, it is why I think that the only real solution to the situation is to pay Paris refs and remove their scores. This can be applied later and gives advantage to all 32 teams. Even it can be a breaking of contract with 3 ref teams it is less then breaking contract with 35 teams. There is a disadvantage, MS can add the expense to the next year licence to get the money back.

Does it make any sense to you? Or am I wrong somwhere?

AND ALL TEAMS SHOULD MAKE A NOICE IF THEY AT LEAST DO NOT WANT THIS MESS FOR THE NEXT SEASONS.
 

Syd (NSPL)

NSPL and Pr0to KotH
Aug 30, 2001
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That all seems pretty reasonable to me.

What we need to do is organise a letter of complaint from ALL the Div One teams - well, I doubt we'd get the reffing teams to join in, but everyone else who is affected by this.

A point was made above that not all Div One teams use these forums.

Are discussion going on elsewhere?

How can we contact all the Division One teams?

Any ideas guys?
 

Fish

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May 15, 2006
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That all seems pretty reasonable to me.

What we need to do is organise a letter of complaint from ALL the Div One teams - well, I doubt we'd get the reffing teams to join in, but everyone else who is affected by this.

A point was made above that not all Div One teams use these forums.

Are discussion going on elsewhere?

How can we contact all the Division One teams?

Any ideas guys?
I would imagine Wendy would have access to teams' contact details if you didn't want to go through the MS to get them.

However this could be construed as breeching any agreement the MS will have made about keeping your details safe... Data protection act and that jazz.

I would see no reason why contacting the MS for such details would be something so far fetched though, the worst they can say is no.
 

vlad.nk

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Jul 24, 2007
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I do not see much options. MS will not provide this list.

1) Use Google and who knows who approach. Collect some set of contacts, sent them the email, explain what is going on and ask if they can provide contact to some other Div1 teams. If I recall it correctly, science believes that if everybody knows 6 people you are connected with all people around the world.

2) Prepare the letter and use London event to meet all teams, discuss it with them, collect signatures, contacts and apply it to MS.

Use the chance to point all teams to this forum as a place where this and all future issues will be discussed and proceeded. The contact list should be updated at the beginning of every season, new teams invited to this forum and competition. Possibly a social community networks (Facebook, Twitter, MySpace...) group can be used, even better with a combination with this forum.

PS: I'm sorry for using imperative, it is not ment this way.
 

sheleh

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Jan 23, 2008
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I represent interests of commands ALL Russians Moscow and Freestyle Moscow

We are ready to sign the letter if my contacts I are necessary to you is ready to give them