D-Day

[Cool Hand]

Hi Tyger,
That's too bad, you'll be missing a hell of a good time! It's not a typical reenactment...they set-up the scenario, but it's up to the players to decide the outcome. And hey, come on...tanks, artilery, smoke, land mines...that'll be fun!!

Cool Hand
Co-Captain, Team American Anthem

 

[Tyger]

Originally posted by Cool Hand
Hi Tyger,
That's too bad, you'll be missing a hell of a good time! It's not a typical reenactment...they set-up the scenario, but it's up to the players to decide the outcome. And hey, come on...tanks, artilery, smoke, land mines...that'll be fun!!

Lemme think about this.

No.

Lemme go find a WW2 vet that clawed his way up the beach of Normandy, watched his best friend's head explode at worst or just drop dead in teh randomness of war at best, and managed to see the worst of humanity. Let me ask him about the smell of burning metal, gunpowder, and searing flesh. Let me ask him what he'd think of someone making money using the hell he survived to entertain kids who couldn't possibly understand the sheer terror of it.

Or, even better, let me go find a German WW2 vet from the other side of the beach. Someone who ultimately lost, and then had to deal with the consequenses of it. Hey, they might be much more compliant to try to 're-win' the war, eh?

While I'm thinking of the Germans side, what would happen if, say, 20/20 shows up? Theoretically speaking, I mean. And they go film ome of the "German" players, and ask them questions like "So does the USA soldiers have a chance?" and "Are you gonna shoot up some Americans?" or even going up to someone in a german uniform, or something that looks like one, and coercing them into giving a "Heil Hitler" hand signal. OH yeah, that'll set paintball back about 10 years in the media. And you know that one image will define paintball.

I can go to PBLI and play with "tanks" and choppers, Michigan Monster to play with troop trucks, there's a field in MN that uses Jeeps to transport players from teh parking lot the 1/2 mile to the field. Hell there's a guy here in Wisconsin who's building tanks using golf carts as a chassis. I can buy smokers. And land mines, if on a trp wire, are dangerous.

But, hey, I'm just a rec player who doesn't like war-based scenario games. Enjoy yourselves, and watch for video cameras.

-Tyger

 

[Cool Hand]

D-Day Scenario

Tyger,
I can respect your opinion. But man, you need to lighten up. I'm 32 years old--not some punk kid. I am a combat veteran of the Gulf War--Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm. I served with the U.S. Army's 82nd Airborne Division, and I was awarded two Purple Hearts. I lost a few real good friends over there. The smells, tastes, sounds...they haunt me to this day. I still have nightmares about the things I witnessed and about the enemy that almost killed me. How dare you presume to lecture me on what combat is like. I was there, were you?! I've been there, done that, survived.
As for "war based" scenario games such as this: it is a game. For many veterans such as myself, it's actually quite thereputic. And, since it sounds as if you've never even been to one, the media is frequently there. This great sport of ours doesn't get bad press from well organized, sponsored events like this one, but rather from punk kids blasting away at pedestrians as they drive through downtown streets video-taping themselves. That type of behavior not only speaks badly for the sport of paintball, but also for the level of intellegence of those punk kids. Lock 'em up, I say!
Before you lecture someone, you'd better know who the hell you're talking to. Before you trash one type of scenario game, you might want to try it, and even then, respect those who enjoy it.

Sincerely,

Cool Hand

 

[Cool Hand]

Tyger,

I'm not finished chewing you out yet. I was looking at your profile here, and apparently you're a co-author of "The Complete Guide to Paintball", and I have to admit, it's a pretty good book...I refer to it often. Unfortunatley, Rob, you continue on to refer to yourself as a "veteran road-trip god" and "a rec-ball guru"??! Okay, somebody's ego is just a little inflated, and I'm thinking it might be yours.

I wonder if the brass at PGI knows that one of its writers sounds like a stuck-up jerk when he's mouthing off and professing to be a "god" and a "guru". Mental note to self: don't ever buy a copy of PGI again.

I've got news for you, Mr. Expert, everyone has room to improve, to learn something new. The fact that you seem to think so highly of yourself says to me that you have more room for improvement than you'd like to admit.

I hope you enjoy the view from the pedistal you've placed yourself on, Your Highness, because a head as large as yours will make staying up there very difficult.

Cool Hand

 

[Tyger]

Ok, first of all if I can't lecture you on what you assume I don't know, then don't have the audacity to lecture me on what I've expirenced.

The last "combat" scenario game I attended was a Wayne Dollack game called "The Rock Pile", a reenactment of a vietnam scenario. At that game, I was physically assaulted by the "XO" of the "Vietnamese" team. I was not only discouraged from calling the police, I was told that I would be "dealt with" if I even thought of involving them.

And why was I assaulted? I played on the "American" team, and it's "...all part of the game." And, straight out of Dollack's mouth, "Boys will be boys." The "XO" of the Vietnamese team was nominated for his position because of his expirence in Dollack games, and Dollack at first couldn't believe what I was saying. After I showed him the wound, he blew it off.

I've also been to another scenario game based on an actual war theme, and in that game I also saw players acting out of control. In one case, a player was KICKED IN THE HEAD after he was shot in the groin from 15 feet away. This isn't a "nowhere" scenario game, this is a major circut scenario series. My expirence shows me there is a total lack of control, the scenario producers encourage this behavior as "Ambience" or "motif", not really caring if someone gets hurt or not. IMHO, it's all about turning that "allmightydallah" on the graves of men that died for their country. Lucky for paintall, there was no media at "Rock Pile".

If you find replaying war in a scenario game as thereputic, that's totally cool by me. Hell, I'll encourage you to do it if it helps ya deal. But, let's also look at the reality. Reality is that what works for you won't work for everyone. PLUS, what you find thereputic others will find barbaric.

Imagine this, for just a moment. This won't be easy because we're all pro-paintball here. I want you to imagine this scenario. Mom drives her kids to this 'paintball game', and drop them off. She comes later that night to pick them up, and walks around. She hears all sorts of things like "Yeah, the VC shot our commander but it's ok, we killed 'em all." Mom does a little bit of digging, and finds out that her children are not only reenacting, but finding it fun to pretend to be VC and kill americans.

Mom gets angry and finds a bunch of other mom's who are also disgusted by it all. Then they only need to find one person in power to also be disgusted. PAintballers are, for the most part, not voting age and have no political power. So it would serve somoene's political career to get on a high horse, and use scenario games that "Glorify the killing of AMERICAN SOLDIERS for points!"

Too afr fetched? You're 32 years old, you remember the PMRC! The recording industry NEVER WON the censorship fight, they created a compromise. The only reason "Eminem" can do his thing is because of a compromise made with SENATOR'S WIVES! All it takes is for ONE PERSON to be offended with a paintball game that glorifies an era that they would rather forget and we're all in deep kim-chi.

I've seen the videotapes you speak of. I've also got an episode of "Nightline" in which an "Expert" says that paintball glorifies war. The reporter even goes as far as to talk about how we play games like "Kill the VC commander and cut off his ear". Wanna see it? I'll mpg it and put it on webdog. The "Story" is about 10 minutes long.

Don't you lecture me about what I've expirenced or not. I don' tneed to know YOU to know what I have seen. You're demanding my respect because you enjoy it. You don't get my respect for just enjoying somehting. You get my respect for actually being able to think. That I'll give you.

However, it has been my expirence with all "war" based scenario games that it is not a good thing for paintball. That is my opinion (and not nessarily the opinion of PGI or anyone else.) I've seen too many people lose control / dicipline in war games, not to mention that the "mainsteam" of paintball is trying to distance itself from the war theme, it almost seems archaic to have 24 hour immersements into warfare that don't include the things that you've seen in the pase.

Am I out of line? Well, is it a coincidence that "Sat Cong Village" is now known as "SC Village"? I don't think so.

-Tyger

 

[Darkwerks]

24-Hour Scenario

Originally posted by Cool Hand
Le-pig,
Of course England was involved, so was Canada and France. The teams for this D-Day Scenario are simply USA and Germany. I don't know why...maybe to keep it simple.

It would have killed them to use "Allied" and "Axis" instead? seems simple enough to me.

Not to metion the fact that the US, Russia, England, Canada and France were joined by troops from Wales, Scotland, Ireland, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, India, Nepal, Polish, Greek, and other exiled European countries, and many others. Surely their sacrifice is just as worthy of a mention?
We just get tired of hearing how America won the war, and if these games are supposed to re-enactments, then they should be using terms which honour all of those who fought (though thats territory that I've covered beforein other threads).

 

[Cool Hand]

Good point, Darkwerks. I second that.

Cool Hand

 

[Cool Hand]

D-Day Scenario

Tyger,

Thank you for responding to my comments from last night with thought provoking experiences and opinions. Now that you've expanded on some of your statements from earlier, I have a better understanding of where you are coming from.

I have had bad experiences at a few Wayne Dollak Scenarios myself, none as rotten as yours for sure, but they left a nasty taste in my mouth none the less. Wayne's behavior, attitude, and actions toward you were, in my opinion, disgusting. My team hasn't gone to one of his games for several years now, and we are not planning to attend any of his events in the future. A guy I work with went to a Wayne Dollak 48-Hour Scenario last summer in PA--I don't remember what the scenario was--and when he got home he was telling me that some goon had been shooting marbles...actual marbles. To make matters worse, when the situation was brought to Wayne's attention, he basically blew it off saying, "What can I do about it?"

As for a war based scenario game having a negative effect on the behavior of its participants, I guess I can't argue with your opinion that it can, and sometimes does, bring out the worst behavior in some players. I have witnessed similar outbursts to those you've described, just not as severe. I'd like to add to that I've watched behavioral outbursts and fights at tounaments as well. These were officially sponsored and organized tournaments.

I want very much to further the sport of paintball. Will I continue to attend scenario games, even war based scenario games? Yes, because I enjoy them. However, I believe it is my duty as a paintball player to model good behavior, strict safety practices, and good sportsmanship, and not to tollerate anyone's actions that are to the contrary. Additionally, I won't attend events sponsored or organized by groups/companys who do tollerate any of that garbage. My team believes strongly in these principles, and so do I. So then, since I won't stop attending games that I enjoy, I can and will be working to positively promote our sport while I'm there. At our field here at home, my teammates and I have a "no excuses, no exceptions" policy with regard to these issues, and we are respected for that.

Cool Hand
Co-Captain, Team American Anthem

 

[Tyger]

D-Day Scenario

Originally posted by Cool Hand
...I'd like to add to that I've watched behavioral outbursts and fights at tounaments as well. These were officially sponsored and organized tournaments.

I'm focusing in on this sentence becasue I want to prove the point here. In a tournament there are reprucussions, even if they are slaps on the wrist. a 6 game suspension for fighting isn't much, but it's still something. In rec-play, there is NOTHING to punish bad behavior. The reality is that the guy that got kicked in the head was, eventually, helped off the field by a referee and placated with a free t-shirt. Teh offending player was told "Play on".

As for as the rest goes, you would know this more than anyone else, but it serves to be said. The military damends dicipline for many reasons, one being that in combat anyone acting like a goob gets killed first. Without dicipline, it all falls apart. And since you have undiciplined people immersed in 'combat', even recreated combat, you get someone's life in danger.

There's a lot of other scenario stories I didn't bring up. Like the gent who played with "Simunition" and a .45 automatic or the guy who demanded to play in a gas mask. In both cases, after caught the player was allowed to keep on doing his thing. No control. And it's my opinion that the 'war' scenario adds to this lack of control. It's MY opinion that players believe "This is war, I don't need to be responsible becasue I'm reenacting war! And there's no rules in war." I haven't even mentioned the physical abuse I've seen that wasn't aggrvated assault, but it's "toleratted" because "Boys will be boys." I'm not willing to accept that.

I will not play in a game where I feel my life is in danger. My being injured or killed is not my idea of enjoyment.

-Tyger

 

[KCJones228]

I see Tyger had another episode of oral diarrhea. Never have I seen someone use so many words to show just how freaking stupid they are.

But, as with his silly "Boxer or Briefs?" post, he has delighted me with some of the most innane counter arguments that I have ever read.