Champions League Captains

[Nick Brockdorff]

Now that you are soon going to be deciding the format we'll all be playing this season, I'd like to make TWO pleas:

1)

Please, please, please, please make sure that no matter what format we are playing, sideline coaching will NOT be allowed.

Now, most of you know I'm a pretty good coach, and would probably do a better job than most other captains in Division 1 - so this is not coming from a selfish place!

I just think coaching is ruining the game and taking away a lot of gamesmanship from the players..... it makes it stereotype and boring.

If you want an activity with people moving pieces around a board - go buy a chess set!

Irrespective of the PSPs involvement with the new world organisation, I think it is crucial to allow European players to develop skills on their own, instead of turning them into robots.

It's time to put X-Ball back in the hands of the players!

You can keep the spectator shouting and screaming for all I care - as long as it is limited to not cheering - not giving information to players.... you may well think that will be hard to control, but I think it is no harder than controlling spectators not being allowed to shout during 7-man games.

2)

PLEASE do not allow full auto.

I understand we need to keep the current Millennium Series gun rules, until we can effectively police true semi.... but allowing FA will just make matters even worse.... look at any NXL game, and you will see what I mean.... players are getting shot to pieces, and way too many moves have become impossible, because of the colume of paint shot, and the ease with which the players shoot under even the most difficult circumstances.

+ + +

Us Europeans might just be able to teach the PSP how X-ball was SUPPOSED to be played

Nick

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
1) Please, please, please, please make sure that no matter what format we are playing, sideline coaching will NOT be allowed.

The biggest problem is controlling it which is already nigh to impossible with the other formats. The ONLY realistically effective things that can be done are to 1) set up the arena in such a way as to negate the effect of spectator coaching, that is, set up fool-proof barricades on the grandstand sides that keep people at least 10 meters away from the netting so that coaching becomes nothing but background noise and apply black-out to the ends and 2) stringently enforce a no-loud-talk rule on the pit side.

The first one would be easy if you had infrastructure people who cared about setting up things right in the first place (definitely not a given if you look at past history). The second would require officiating personnel in each pit area which costs money and takes away resources from the playing fields.

I agree with what you want but it doesn't seem so workable.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
2) PLEASE do not allow full auto.

I don't think FA would be so likely in Europe for some time in the future, if ever. However, I think it might as well be allowed, at least for the elite division. I watched or worked near a lot of NXL and PSP games at the last WC and I didn't observe any difference in the amount of people getting shot up. In fact the games seemed to be almost the same except that NXL seemed generally faster-paced. If you look at the videos of both you'll see that there was plenty of movement in both.

Concerning both points, it seems like it would be incumbent upon the Europro teams to play as close as possilble to, really exactly the same as, the American counterparts.

 

[Christian-Malera]

Originally posted by Wadidiz
The biggest problem is controlling it which is already nigh to impossible with the other formats. The ONLY realistically effective things that can be done are to 1) set up the arena in such a way as to negate the effect of spectator coaching, that is, set up fool-proof barricades on the grandstand sides that keep people at least 10 meters away from the netting so that coaching becomes nothing but background noise and apply black-out to the ends and 2) stringently enforce a no-loud-talk rule on the pit side.

The first one would be easy if you had infrastructure people who cared about setting up things right in the first place (definitely not a given if you look at past history). The second would require officiating personnel in each pit area which costs money and takes away resources from the playing fields.

I would not say that "sideline coaching" was a problem during last year and that was becuase it was forbiddden, so if it is not allowed and they think about they way they set up the arena at the same time, it should work fine.

 

[Wadidiz]

Re: Re: Champions League Captains

Originally posted by Christian-Malera
I would not say that "sideline coaching" was a problem during last year and that was becuase it was forbiddden

It wasn't MUCH of a problem but ask Maharadjas about it. They probably were kept out of first place because of sideline coaching in Paris. And I can tell you that I've seen it as a factor many times in all the leagues. Again, not a gigantic problem but still significant when it does happen.

Originally posted by Christian-Malera
...so if it is not allowed and they think about they way they set up the arena at the same time, it should work fine.

You're probably right. But they have to set the arenas up exactly right, not half-assed.

 

[Iron Lions - Ed]

I appreciate what your saying but doesn't it amount to the "If you can't beat them, join em" approach that has resulted in ramping guns becoming allowed? Seems to be a trend in giving in to the minorities going on.

Again, not a gigantic problem but still significant when it does happen.

This being true surely we should strive to keep ocurences to the minimum rather than encouraging?

Why not simply say any in the stands can say what they want as they can be set up at a suitable distance to minimise impact and any sideline players have to stay quiet as per 2005 rules?

 

[Chicago]

I hate the "players don't develop skills with coaching" argument, because it is complete bull****. Players develop somewhat DIFFERENT skills, but this whole "turns players into robots" thing assumes that good coaching is somehow easy. It's not.

Why do you get to choose which skills are the "right" skills for paintball? Since when is guessing where on the field your opponents are a "skill"? How is seeing an opponent and communicating it to your teammates with no background noise somehow more holy than a coach seeing your opponent and communicating it to you amongst a lot of background noise? How is a slow game where players are spending a lot of time trying to figure out where opponents are more "skillful" than a fast game where players who can't communicate quickly and effectively are going to by rapidly overwhelmed by opponents who can?


The only reason you think no coaching is better is because that's what we had first as an artifact of woodsball. This isn't any better of a reason than it was when people didn't want semi-auto or when people didn't want constant air or when people didn't want concept fields.

You can always argue against change on the basis of not liking the change, but it's a stupid argument.


On the guns, ramping is better than uncertified semi-auto. But ramping/full auto is killing the game, and it's the short-term, easy way out. We NEED certified boards to eliminate the demand for ramping so these boards stop showing up at rec and entry level tournaments and stop pushing new players out of the game.

 

[Iron Lions - Ed]

Why do you get to choose which skills are the "right" skills for paintball? Since when is guessing where on the field your opponents are a "skill"? How is seeing an opponent and communicating it to your teammates with no background noise somehow more holy than a coach seeing your opponent and communicating it to you amongst a lot of background noise? How is a slow game where players are spending a lot of time trying to figure out where opponents are more "skillful" than a fast game where players who can't communicate quickly and effectively are going to by rapidly overwhelmed by opponents who can?

I think the advocacy of non-coaching i.e players have to work out where the opposition is allows for more skills to be employed on field than with coaching. That is, a team needs to be able to communicate, be able to view the field, push in the oppostion to disguise their own movements. Coaching replaces those with the skill of a being good coach. Not denying it might make a quicker and more spectator friendly game but I think it does take more skills out of the game than it puts back and thus makes life easier for the players on field. For the purists that's not a good thing.

Question of whether you want a faster paced game for specators or a harder test for players on field.

 

[Christian-Malera]

Originally posted by Iron Lions - Ed

Why not simply say any in the stands can say what they want as they can be set up at a suitable distance to minimise impact and any sideline players have to stay quiet as per 2005 rules?

Then it would be sideline coaching allowed. Because, let say in the finals a suitable distance would be 10-15 meters, a lot of people, crowd noise, but in the first game of the day , no crowd, no noise the distance would be 35 meters..? a team with a "spectator" would have an advantage over the team without a "spectator". This way all serious teams would need to bring a "spectator" in the cases that this would be useful, early ganes etc. This would add cost and a home team advantage.
We did not experience any sideline coaching to speak about in the Millenium last year, but in the NPPL..........

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

I don't really see the problem with mu suggestions:

We have no problem keeping spectators from sideline coaching in 7-man, so it shouldn't be a problem in X-Ball Lite.

Another aspect of why I dislike sideline coaching, is that it puts extra economic strain on the teams, especially in the lower divisions.... baring in mind the lower sponsorship levels this year, bringing an extra player to coach is just piling on extra econimic pressure, without really gaining anything positive (it's not like the sideline coaching improves the game in any significant way).

The gun rules worked fine, in terms of ROF ramping last year, so don't see why we should suddenly move to PSP rules.

Nick

 

[Robbo]

The principle of sideline coaching sucks in that it can discourage aggressive play and reward a big mouth.
Coaches on side lines have an enormous advantage when seeing things, this should not be allowed to pass onto the field as the field of play is where it should unfold not from outside.
Corner men are banned from talking during a boxing match, managers in soccer are stopped from sideline coaching......there is a reason for this, it's not arbitrary.

What I will say is this, whatever the Yanks do in the PSP, we HAVE to follow suit whether we like it or not because we need a standard format, we need to play the same game as the Yanks for obvious reasons...it's no use ruining with a ban on sideline coaching and then go to contest some world cup at a later date and be at a huge disadvantage in not having honed whatever skills it takes (not much I know but hey..) when they have been doing it all season.
We need to talk to the PSP and agree where we go on this one.
A unilateral decision to either allow or bar could prove disastrous.
There is absolutely no point in creating this New World Order and then at the first opportunity we get, departing from the industry standard format...and make no mistake here whether we like it or not. the Yanks lead the Paintball parade..let's talk with them, let's negotiate, but don't lets move on our own with this respect.