Additional reffing reform

[raehl]

Yeah...

I think that's still only a half-assed solution though. The only real solution is a group of refs who ref all year, do NOT play the league, and are paid to make sure you've got qualified refs doing it. While there are certainly ways to reduce problems, things will never be as good as they could be so long as teams that play the league also ref the league, especially if the primary means of payment is points.


Realistically, why would a team sign up to ref if there's a good chance the points they'll get will only be worth placing, say, 16th? And if the pay really is series points, for which there are no prizes, why not just let the teams who get good ratings ref all year and PAY them and let the wages be the prize? Or maybe give the team promotional consideration in lieu of payment? (I.e. reffing teams get sponsor space on reffing jersies.)

- Chris

 

[Wadidiz]

Yeah...

Originally posted by raehl
I think that's still only a half-assed solution though. The only real solution is a group of refs who ref all year, do NOT play the league, and are paid to make sure you've got qualified refs doing it. While there are certainly ways to reduce problems, things will never be as good as they could be so long as teams that play the league also ref the league, especially if the primary means of payment is points.


Realistically, why would a team sign up to ref if there's a good chance the points they'll get will only be worth placing, say, 16th? And if the pay really is series points, for which there are no prizes, why not just let the teams who get good ratings ref all year and PAY them and let the wages be the prize? Or maybe give the team promotional consideration in lieu of payment? (I.e. reffing teams get sponsor space on reffing jersies.)

- Chris

I don't think we have the economic base yet in Europe to be able to afford all pro reffing. (I know for a fact that it cost Pure Promotions well over $15,000 just for the 18 guys brought in from Sweden to Huntington Beach.)

You're right that there will always be problems with player-reffing. But this is what we have and we must make the best of it.

Another thing with Europe is that our base of potential pro refs must be a lot less than USA where the PB population has been much higher for much longer.

Then, the best judges, like the Nordic players, are the ones that most want to play. Many of my Swedish colleagues who received so much praise for good reffing said that they would never ref again, just because one wants to play so much and, it is such a hard job.

But I believe some of the points brought out here, properly applied with good leadership, could make a substantial difference.

Steve

 

[raehl]

yeah, it all comes down to how much players are willing to PAY for improved reffing, and I honestly don't believe it's as much as the bitching would have you believe. I'm also not sure I agree on the numbers thing - I think the real issue with getting quality refs is getting people who don't want to be PLAYING the events you're trying to get them to ref.

I'm looking to staff one or two X Ball fields at World Cup, and just thinking at the money I'm going to have to shell out for that is giving me one major headache. I'm either going to have to completely cover the expenses plus pay wages to get people not playing World Cup to ref the event (and how many qualified refs are there who won't want to be playing?) or, more likely, run two reffing crews that are there for 10-man and 1) Pray they both don't end up in the same morning/afternoon session and 2) Bribe the PSP officials to make sure they don't both make the semis.


Just kidding about 2, of course.


- Chris

 

[jecstacy]

Whats the point of having an ultimate on the field when the majority of the time they will just say its happened i cant change anything now.

we played germany and we filmed our games on video we have got evidence of.

1. a player on the other team being clearly shot 3 times in the back, eliminated by the judge and then being wiped down by a judge the other side of the field.

2. a blatent shot being wiped of a guy who was real friendly with the refs before we played

3. a marshall actually pointing out our guy in the snake to the other team.

4. this is my favorite i got pulled out by a marshal asked where am i hit he goes on your arm i say where he tells me to get of the field before i get 1 4 1'd so i do. at the end of the game i ask the marshal to show me where i was hit. when he sees im clean he says "sorry i made a mistake you wernt hit but i thought i saw a ball hit you." so he didnt even check for paint he thought he saw a ball hit me.

5. oh a the little matter of players spinning on our miuggers and getting wiped down.

so all this is on video yet it still wouldnt change a thing.

now i know that our team didnt play well and people can say we are just blaming the refs. but its hard enough beating some of the teams out there let alone having to beat the refs aswell.

 

[woz]

Jay

I said it once and ill say it again, there aint no point having ultimates unless they are present at ALL games



Woz

 

[jecstacy]

the thing is the ultimate was present at one of these games guess what was said

i cant do anything about it now

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by j,ecstacy
the thing is the ultimate was present at one of these games guess what was said

i cant do anything about it now

This brings up a significant controversy among referees, the question of can or should games be replayed in some circumstances?

I don't think so. We have to deal with a bad reffing situation while it's happening or deal with the ref immediately afterwards. Once a bad call is made it is too late except to point out what the mistake was and hope that it's dealt with so it doesn't happen again. Bad calls are going to happen even with the best refs and that is something we just have to accept while trying to improve the system.

 

[Wadidiz]

Replaying games

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
They don't do it in other sports.

BUT - in other sports they do not have the possibility of doing it right there and then - and in other sports a tournament is not just a weekend.... it's a season !

So - I honestly believe the Ultimate should be allowed to declare a re-match in some instances.

What else are they there for ?

No need for an Ultimate, if all he can do is say "It happened - nothing I can do about it now" !

BUT - for the re-match window to be opened....... the Ultimate obviously HAS to be a person of substance and restraint !

Nick

Maybe there could be some extreme, rare circumstances that would call for a replay. But...I'm not sure I want that keg of worms opened. Very complicated.

What else should an ultimate do? Deal with the bad reffing by seeing to it that the same mistake doesn't happen again. Continually teach, with words and action, everyone on the field the art of good reffing. Penalize poor or biased judging after appropriate warnings. Modify behavior.

 

[woz]

I said it once and ill say it again, there aint no point having ultimate's unless they are present at ALL games


When i said this i meant the ultimate should actually be on the field marshalling or in a raised tower with 2 way radio contact to the playing field, physically present in every game.

4 fields = 4 ultimate marshalls


woz

 

[shamu]

Re: Replaying games

Originally posted by Wadidiz
Maybe there could be some extreme, rare circumstances that would call for a replay. But...I'm not sure I want that keg of worms opened. Very complicated.

What else should an ultimate do? Deal with the bad reffing by seeing to it that the same mistake doesn't happen again. Continually teach, with words and action, everyone on the field the art of good reffing. Penalize poor or biased judging after appropriate warnings. Modify behavior.

I agree that replaying a game is a pretty extreme solution. Not sure I'd be in favor of that as it could lead to even more arguements. For example, team A loses a close game and immediately demands a rematch.

I think the independent head ref idea has real merit. Much easier to monitor the quality if you have continous supervision and can make immediate changes. For example, a judge giving away players positions in the snake can be moved to another location, or simply told "this is where you stand". Having someone watch his performance will help ensure he does it correctly.

Then there's the problem of what kind of penalites can you give refs who aren't doing their job. If a reffing team keeps screwing up even after being warned/directed repeatedly, what do you do? If you tell them in the middle of the tournament that they've lost their series points (or pay, if we get that far), why should they stick around? What's to keep them from simply leaving in the midst of the event, thereby impacting the rest of the schedule?

Of course, the obvious answer is to not tell them they've lost their reward until after the event, but then you're right back where you started - controversy and unhappiness with the quality of reffing....