Pete, you still have the aceville e-mail address? I was looking for you on Skype last night and this morning but no luck.
New size paintballs?
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Si, I hadn't done the math no but thanks for serving it up mate, it took me back a few years to my teaching days, now I remember why I gave that all up
Anyway, I'm not sure why you would question the description 'revolution', that seems trivial and also quite wrong ... anything 'new' that will, if adopted, overturn the present wholesale usage of a certain item within our sport, especially something as fundamental as paint, can quite easily be described as 'revolutionary' .... Seems to me Si, you wish to put this down in some way mate.....reasons?
Or is it startlingly obvious and not one I really wish to articulate here.
Come on mate, stick to the science, it befits you more.
I detest the fact you bought into this, the whole notion of safety in such a negative and scaremongering way, do you honestly think Richmond is gonna get involved in something that would / could potentially harm even one person???
Are you insane Si?
No, you ain't, so why mention that cr@p?
You know this won't be the case and never would be ...... your posts are looking agenda-ridden (which of course you will deny) with every new offering Si...and please don't give me, 'oh but Pete, I am just trying to flag things up for the player and they are the ones I am worried about'.
I think you know Richmond better than that Si .... you really do.
You made mention of something for reasons other than what you imply.
As for the math?
You, as well as I, when doing any calculations concerning this 50 cal ball are shoving in variables that you (or I) have no idea of their real values.
And if you are happy to base your conclusions on such calculations then you set yourself well apart form any responsible critic that I know of.
I honestly have not been party to the development of the ball, I do not know the chemistry of the fill, the chemistry of the shell or their relative masses or consistencies.
I have no knowledge of its ballistic parameters or anything Si.
I cannot do the math coz I haven't got all the information and my comments are 100% based upon what I have been told.
I have known Richmond for a long time as you know, and he hasn't ever lied / deceived / misled me in any way and gives me no cause whatsoever to doubt whatever he gets involved with.
I have talked to a few of his team who have been working on this and they are the guys who told me what they had achieved ... I have no reason to doubt anything they told me mate.
Now, either you are trying to impress people with your mathematics skills (I don't think you are that petty Si) or you are trying to undermine the whole idea of a new concept before it's even started .... come on Si, let's not go down that road mate on my site ... if you are gonna post on this subject, then please adhere to responsible criticism and try to hit us with conclusions that are emergent properties of responsible calculations and not the Mickey Mouse Math you just served up.
I just want to say, that I independantly and without any agenda worked out a similar thing in a previous post on this thread. Following a slightly different process I ended up with similar numbers.
http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1230032&postcount=36
Mickey mouse maths (PLEASE dont drop the S) it may be.
With enough information, theoretical calculations can be quite useful.
The diameter of the ball is a fairly dependable variable.
As is the maximum muzzle energy defined by law.
For us nerds, wanting to know what the future will be like is enough to make us want to work out stuff like that.
Ever since I heard about this, I have been saying:
1. It will hurt like fxck
2. It will bounce like fxck.
I don't need math, I can draw on my experience in the 80's using .62cal (That hurt like crazy and actually left entry and exit-holes in loaders when it hit them) and my recent experience shooting .43cal (last week) where the paint bounced even at close range (at 270fps), however, it still broke the skin.
Obviously this 50 cal effort is happening, and people have time and money invested in it already, but in my opinion the wax, powder-filled paintballs that are also being made have more legs.
I don't think Si has an agenda either, after all, KEE just bought 24 50cal die-rolls, and its no sweat for them to make the paint. He just see's it the same as I do, yet explains it in a 'sciency' way rather than my 'four-letter-word' way.
I also have other concerns about the '50cal revolution', but I would not share them publicly.
I heard Richmonds 50cal 'field guns' will be around $200. Thats too high to encourage the shift. It can be argued that there are long-term savings, but that does not help a field to make a 20-50g investmant during an economic decline.
1. It will hurt like fxck
2. It will bounce like fxck.
I don't need math, I can draw on my experience in the 80's using .62cal (That hurt like crazy and actually left entry and exit-holes in loaders when it hit them) and my recent experience shooting .43cal (last week) where the paint bounced even at close range (at 270fps), however, it still broke the skin.
Obviously this 50 cal effort is happening, and people have time and money invested in it already, but in my opinion the wax, powder-filled paintballs that are also being made have more legs.
I don't think Si has an agenda either, after all, KEE just bought 24 50cal die-rolls, and its no sweat for them to make the paint. He just see's it the same as I do, yet explains it in a 'sciency' way rather than my 'four-letter-word' way.
I also have other concerns about the '50cal revolution', but I would not share them publicly.
I heard Richmonds 50cal 'field guns' will be around $200. Thats too high to encourage the shift. It can be argued that there are long-term savings, but that does not help a field to make a 20-50g investmant during an economic decline.
Surely, if you make the flight of the ball flatter or more "true", thus increasing accuracy this is bad from a pure business point of view?
Easier eliminations (thorugh increased accuracy) means less bullets being shot (sold), ergo less profits for the producers? Sure more realistic when compared to real bullets, but will we now need to allow for flesh wounds or non-kill shots?
There really has to be some deeper thinking involved somewhere, but I'm not seeing it in this thread (the science stuff aside). I don't buy the benefits being around the costs of production or even shifting more (or less) bullets in the existing game / tournament format (there are benefits of course, but I'm not sure this is the real driver???). Or what I really mean is the cost per kill ratio, putting my arms dealer head on. It is after all, better to kill insurgants with as many 30 mike mike depleted uranium shells as possible, not standard FMJ's...
The only economic benefit I see here, is not more bullets being shot in a game, but more games being played in a day as game times are reduced. Now, who is going to argue against more game time?????
Easier eliminations (thorugh increased accuracy) means less bullets being shot (sold), ergo less profits for the producers? Sure more realistic when compared to real bullets, but will we now need to allow for flesh wounds or non-kill shots?
There really has to be some deeper thinking involved somewhere, but I'm not seeing it in this thread (the science stuff aside). I don't buy the benefits being around the costs of production or even shifting more (or less) bullets in the existing game / tournament format (there are benefits of course, but I'm not sure this is the real driver???). Or what I really mean is the cost per kill ratio, putting my arms dealer head on. It is after all, better to kill insurgants with as many 30 mike mike depleted uranium shells as possible, not standard FMJ's...
The only economic benefit I see here, is not more bullets being shot in a game, but more games being played in a day as game times are reduced. Now, who is going to argue against more game time?????
John, I called it Mickey Mouse because some variables were being assumed and some factors ignored (friction coefficients for reduced areas), I too did the math a long while back along with Tom Kaye and we came up with some interesting results but ..... a lot of us can sit down with a pencil and theorise with numbers and functions hanging out our ass and 'yes', mathematics can and does prove useful but the proof is in the practical pudding.
And this particular pudding has a factor affecting it that nobody has yet introduced.
I talked to Si (Manike) this afternoon and I am 100% satisfied he has no agenda outside of responsible concern and I apologise for my tone to him.
We had a good mathematical discussion where we both outlined our position.
Anyway, when I went Stateside and did some work with Tom Kaye in his lab at Air Gun Technologies one time, we were looking at high speed pics he had done of paintballs hitting smoke plumes to get an idea of any bow waves that might affect trajectory.
That research came up with an interesting phenomena, that of 'ball wobble' and its effect on flight path, or rather, distance.
The mathematics associated with this pehenomena is complex to say the least and most discussions that cover this have to be concerned with reported effects rather than explaining it mathematically.
I am off to the gym right now, so I will come back on line when I return to continue the discussion hopefully ...well, I will as long as the guy I am sparring with tonight doesn't dislocate my jaw.
Laters Jon !
Pete
There are clear advantages in costs in using a smaller ball. Shipping alone could drive prices down a buck or 2 per case.
The increased accuracy you mention will just translate into more bounces in my opinion, so the only way games would end sooner is if the guy getting shot walks off the field believing himself eliminated (after soaking up 20 balls) only to find none of them actually marked him.
Now, there is, I believe, something in the PSP rules stating that if a ref sees a player hit, and the ball bounces, he can still pull the player out, as he saw the player hit (I believe some refs enforce this but most don't). We may start hearing a lot more about this if 50cal is introduced. Now, that I would love to see. Can you imagine the Pro finals?
ref: Yeah, Oliver, you're out.
OL: Where?
ref: It bounced, but I saw it, so you're out.
OL: Oh, I see, well I respect your position as a judge, and therefore I will leave the field immediately sir.
I imagine it would go something like that.....
I do agree that there is a cost saving per case, and had actually amended my post accordingly but I struggle to understand that this would be good enough reason to push for this change, especially now. A 20% reduction at wholesale, barely ever translates to retail and currently that will look like profiteering (the cynical bunch most here are).
I take your point on frangibility (is this a real word????), but confess I had made an assumption that this issue would be resolved with the new ball. It always seemed to me that ballers biggest gripe ever was/ is bouncers (not that they were sh*t shots). Now if there really is a frangibility issue with 50cal this would make an even more difficult sell, no matter what the cost. I just don't see the point of making the ball fly straighter / longer if doesn't break when it get's there. We may as well all go back to shooting moody Timmies at 21bps Full Auto. Surely that's a retrograde step? Maybe I'm a bit niaive, but always thought the best way to make Paintball more popular / successful as a business would be to improve the entertainment experience for customers (whether rental, rec or tournament). The best way to do this is increased trigger time. X ball was an example of this at tournament and giving Rec customers 10 games a day as opposed to 8 may improve their experience too. Of course you might still shoot a 1000 rounds over 10 as opposed to 8 games, but you've had 25% more enjoyment.
I could be wrong though.
I don't want to come across as the 'anti-50cal-guy' as I am genuinely open to the possibility of new technology dealing with the issues stated. However, your customer (that just got more games, 25% or whatever) -
1. did that guy enjoy his day more if the paintballs broke his skin and left deep bruising?
2. What about his bird's bleeding-welt-neck? Is he more or less likely to return?
3. What will the guys and girls he works with say when they see him at work on Monday with bloody welts? Will it stimulate them more, or less, to play for the first time?
There are many factors that will influence grass-roots, cost and game-time are just 2 of them.
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