A Problem with God

[TEKLOFTY]

Tek, you seem to possess the 'will' to participate in these debates, which of course is commendable and very welcome, but you don't yet possess the armoury.
This is not a criticism, it is merely an observation.
I went back through a few threads and looked at the way you interact with whatever subject is being discussed, and as I said, you undoubtedly have the passion, the inclination and hunger but as of yet, not in full possession of the ability to stay on track or think logically.

Sometimes in life, you just have to take a back seat and not pursue points for the sake of it.... a few years ago, there was a guy on here with a similar 'passion' for debate to yours ...his name was brockdorrf and eventually, he hung himself, metaphorically of course.
As a well-meaning piece of advice, please try to locate that winch that is positioned somewhere near your head, and at least, embrace the notion of winding that neck back in a tad.

Peace

So you now won’t even address my point? Quite obviously it is you who doesn’t have the necessary ‘armour’, lol.

 

[Robbo]

So you now won’t even address my point? Quite obviously it is you who doesn’t have the necessary ‘armour’, lol.

First off, I'm glad I have amused you but do you honestly think I have swerved rebutting you because I haven't got the armoury???

...or do you think I might not have answered because I grew a little tired of discussing a subject with someone who just isn't up to it and seems incapable of realising that fact.

Go back and look at my 8000 plus posts, I have NEVER shirked a debate least of all to somebody like yourself, now by all means indulge yourself in these threads but never make the mistake of believing I have discontinued a discussion because of a lack of armoury, you are nowhere near the person capable of eliciting that reaction in me ... as I said, wind your neck in a little and try to learn to back off when the time comes .... and do not become disrespectful ....

Peace

 

[Tom Allen]

I got a problem in my head and I wish Duffitusta was around to help me because it's gonna need a cross between a philosophy graduate and someone well versed in logic to maybe get a handle on this problem.

The problem itself isn't a complex one, in fact, it's alarmingly simple but it made an unexpected appearance in my brain about a week ago and it won't leave me alone, hence this post and request for help.

Let's assume there is a god, let's also assume that if there is a god, he/she can do anything he/she damn well pleases.
In other words, god is omnipotent ....nothing is beyond the power of him/her upsatirs....so far so good?

Well, you'd think so but I got a nagging problem and it's to do with time and causality; in reality, it might well be I am not thinking straight and some bright-ass punk can point me in the right direction, let's hope so; any way, here it is:-

Let's take an incident, any incident, it doesn't matter, and for the sake of exploring this problem, let's talk about something that everyone will remember and would have wished didn't happen, the deaths of those two girls in Soham a few years back.
It horrified all decent people; I am pretty sure that seeing that pic of them with their football jerseys on bought home the tragic waste of life and the misery inflicted on their respective families.

Whenever I see cr@p like that, it makes my insides turn and depresses me and I sorta play a game in my head where I imagine if I could go back in time to just before that incident, then I'd kill that Huntley guy who murdered them thus allowing the girls to live on happily.
Of course this is impossible ... but if I had a word with him upstairs, he could let me go back and I'd do the necessary bad stuff to ensure the kids' safety.
I of course realise all the moral problems associated with this but let's ignore them for a bit please.
This all sounds a bit weird but bear with me please ..... it will all fall into place soon enough.

And so, God rewinds time for me, I pop back in time, strangle Huntley and the girls live on ....job done - the world's a better place for allowing those two girls to live on. I might have a problem with God afterwards for killing Huntley but I'll deal with that as and when...

Well, here's the thing .... if we think about that new time-line whereby the girls live on, there will be no murders, nobody on earth will know a damn thing happened apart from some nonce called Huntley is found strangled somewhere, just me and God know, he could of course wipe my memory of the whole incident but that possibility is academic here.

And so, this is the dilemma, if we propose God can do anything and everything, and the thing we ask him to do is to rewind time, he can of course do it.

He can certainly rewind the time-line back and the following time-line doesn't have the murders in it but...the murders still happened in the original, the time-tape just got rewound and events went onto to do something else.

I am suggesting here, God cannot undo events that have happened, he can certainly rewind the tape to a place prior to the event and then another time line is embarked upon but then those girls still got killed albeit in the original time-line, it just got rewound to create a new one....you can talk about differing time-lines etc but if you think about it, these are still academic because the event still happened !!!

It seems as though God can't do everything...or can he/she?

My apologies if this has been said before.

The answer seems relatively easy.
You can't move in time, and there is no god.
Events that have happened, just happen, no matter how disgusting they are.
Call me narrow minded for my disbelief, but let's be realistic here, if there was a chance that time could be moved the ramifications would be immense.
And remember..There is no god.

 

[Robbo]

My apologies if this has been said before.

The answer seems relatively easy.
You can't move in time, and there is no god.
Events that have happened, just happen, no matter how disgusting they are.
Call me narrow minded for my disbelief, but let's be realistic here, if there was a chance that time could be moved the ramifications would be immense.
And remember..There is no god.

.......er...Tom, I think most people understand the ramifications of time travel but it is theoretically possible if a little inappropriate.
But suggesting there isn't a god (creator) is not really gonna cut much ice in any discussion where rational thinking is preferred.

 

[Mario]

I got a problem in my head and I wish Duffitusta was around to help me because it's gonna need a cross between a philosophy graduate and someone well versed in logic to maybe get a handle on this problem.

The problem itself isn't a complex one, in fact, it's alarmingly simple but it made an unexpected appearance in my brain about a week ago and it won't leave me alone, hence this post and request for help.

Let's assume there is a god, let's also assume that if there is a god, he/she can do anything he/she damn well pleases.
In other words, god is omnipotent ....nothing is beyond the power of him/her upsatirs....so far so good?

Well, you'd think so but I got a nagging problem and it's to do with time and causality; in reality, it might well be I am not thinking straight and some bright-ass punk can point me in the right direction, let's hope so; any way, here it is:-

Let's take an incident, any incident, it doesn't matter, and for the sake of exploring this problem, let's talk about something that everyone will remember and would have wished didn't happen, the deaths of those two girls in Soham a few years back.
It horrified all decent people; I am pretty sure that seeing that pic of them with their football jerseys on bought home the tragic waste of life and the misery inflicted on their respective families.

Whenever I see cr@p like that, it makes my insides turn and depresses me and I sorta play a game in my head where I imagine if I could go back in time to just before that incident, then I'd kill that Huntley guy who murdered them thus allowing the girls to live on happily.
Of course this is impossible ... but if I had a word with him upstairs, he could let me go back and I'd do the necessary bad stuff to ensure the kids' safety.
I of course realise all the moral problems associated with this but let's ignore them for a bit please.
This all sounds a bit weird but bear with me please ..... it will all fall into place soon enough.

And so, God rewinds time for me, I pop back in time, strangle Huntley and the girls live on ....job done - the world's a better place for allowing those two girls to live on. I might have a problem with God afterwards for killing Huntley but I'll deal with that as and when...

Well, here's the thing .... if we think about that new time-line whereby the girls live on, there will be no murders, nobody on earth will know a damn thing happened apart from some nonce called Huntley is found strangled somewhere, just me and God know, he could of course wipe my memory of the whole incident but that possibility is academic here.

And so, this is the dilemma, if we propose God can do anything and everything, and the thing we ask him to do is to rewind time, he can of course do it.

He can certainly rewind the time-line back and the following time-line doesn't have the murders in it but...the murders still happened in the original, the time-tape just got rewound and events went onto to do something else.

I am suggesting here, God cannot undo events that have happened, he can certainly rewind the tape to a place prior to the event and then another time line is embarked upon but then those girls still got killed albeit in the original time-line, it just got rewound to create a new one....you can talk about differing time-lines etc but if you think about it, these are still academic because the event still happened !!!

It seems as though God can't do everything...or can he/she?

Doctor, pills, problem solved.

Time is a man made thing. If God is omnipotent, no force of logic or reasoning apply to him. Likewise any laws of physic, chemistry whatever apply. You can battle all you want with it, but omnipotence means that nothing is beyond Him.

 

[Tom Allen]

.......er...Tom, I think most people understand the ramifications of time travel but it is theoretically possible if a little inappropriate.
But suggesting there isn't a god (creator) is not really gonna cut much ice in any discussion where rational thinking is preferred.[/quote]

I'm suprised that any creedence is given to anyone with the view there is a god.

And i'm not suprised that there are a lot of learned people on the "god bandwaggon", it's a fairly easy side to be on. You don't need to prove anything it just is........Rubbish.

"God moves in myserious ways"
"It was there time"

Wake up.

 

[Robbo]

Doctor, pills, problem solved.

Time is a man made thing. If God is omnipotent, no force of logic or reasoning apply to him. Likewise any laws of physic, chemistry whatever apply. You can battle all you want with it, but omnipotence means that nothing is beyond Him.

Time isn't man made at all Chris, it's a creator's construct, we just experience time, we did not create it.
As for the rest of your post?
Might serve you well to go look at some previous posts that pretty much covers this.

 

[Mario]

Time isn't man made at all Chris, it's a creator's construct, we just experience time, we did not create it.
As for the rest of your post?
Might serve you well to go look at some previous posts that pretty much covers this.

Sorry, my ambiguosity knows no bounds. I meant our perception of time. Going back and forth etc. I would of thought God could experience time in any way he wanted and manipulate it any way he wanted being omnipotent. IF this is indeed the case then God can change a timeline by sending you back to interfere with Ian Huntley. I God can change a timeline why can he not erase a timeline?

For me your question comes down to belief systems and is not a question of whether God can or cannot do this or that. You believe (if i've understood you) that God cannot erase timelines. If he is omnipotent, then as Buddha says he can and do anything, logic be damned.

I assume your having a proper think and amassing your evidence before bashing skulls with Buddha.

Anyway, i'm partially high on spray paints. I probably dont understand.

 

[Robbo]

.......er...Tom, I think most people understand the ramifications of time travel but it is theoretically possible if a little inappropriate.
But suggesting there isn't a god (creator) is not really gonna cut much ice in any discussion where rational thinking is preferred.[/quote]

I'm suprised that any creedence is given to anyone with the view there is a god.

And i'm not suprised that there are a lot of learned people on the "god bandwaggon", it's a fairly easy side to be on. You don't need to prove anything it just is........Rubbish.

"God moves in myserious ways"
"It was there time"

Wake up.

Tom, there are plenty of people who seem to want to corner the market on ignorance but you seem to be one of the most determined along with Mr Tek.

You call it 'rubbish' eh?

I'm sure those learned people you mention will be undoubtedly comforted in the knowledge an erudite person such as yourself failed to express surprise at so many jumping on the God bandwagon ... maybe because as you suggest, it's an easy side to take.

Ya know what Tom?
I'm glad you bought this up because there are a lot of extremely intelligent people sitting on the fence on this one and were maybe thinking it was an easy side to be on because of the huge amount of evidence underpinning the notion of a creator, they can now come down off the fence, safe in the knowledge that the entirety of your argument for there not being a god was your detailed explanation of 'rubbish' ..... cool, I'm impressed by such extended and deep reflection, and of course, such accountability.
It only goes to prove our education system seems to be working, leastwise in your neck of the woods anyway.

 

[Robbo]

I assume your having a proper think and amassing your evidence before bashing skulls with Buddha.

Luckily for me, Buddha's got a brain in his head and therefore we tend to differ very little in opinion, if and when we do differ, you can trust I will be thinking clearly enough before I write anything in response to him, or anybody else for that matter, including you Chris