K2 bites the bullet in Reunification Part 96
- Thread starter Baca Loco
- Start date
I'm a bit late to this discussion, but wanted to post a thought I'd had some time ago and see what you all think. It's an unrefined idea that I think has merit but I'm just a guy down near the bottom of the pool and I thought I'd present it to the greater thinkers near the top for comments.
Paintball has grown tremendously, and the competitive side (tournament) has really branched into two distinct camps as I see it, Xball and 7man. Yes, there are 5 man and 3 man events everywhere, but the sport, the future, will come from Xball or 7man (or a variation of 7 man if M7 is all as good as what's been said in this thread)
As I read comments about reunification here and elsewhere, one of the largest challenges discussed is what format would we play. The pros and cons to the format really depend on where you stand, and unfortunately, most of us do stand on one side or the other, so neither side really agrees on what is best.
The thought that I mentioned at the beginning of this post address the point of format. I asked myself, why do we need a single format? Sure, for the hopes of TV, perhaps we do. (This would of course be my bottom dwelling sight limitations talking, but sometimes a naive thought can be a great idea simply because it isn't saddled with baggage.) But is TV really what we need at this point?
As paintball stands today, we sorely lack organization as a sport. Reunification is looked to as the solution for this problem, and it probably will be. But reunification doesn't solve the problem of format, though it would have to bring about some sort of solution to the problem in order bring about the standardization/organization that we desperately need. So what do we do?
My idea is simple...Keep both formats. Here's the basic concept:
1. One Paintball season (I'd like Sept to May to avoid summer heat!)
2. Run a 3 event Xball division and a 3 event 7man division
3. Accumulate series points based on performance in both divisions
4. End of season you have Xball Champions and 7man Champions.
5. Series Champions based on the overall point leader??
6. Optional idea on Series Champions would be a 7th event, televised (perhaps paid for by % of entry from season, industry, advertising, etc?), showcasing both formats, top teams earning the right to attend based on performance. Teams play both formats here, winner is the champion. Guarantee TV time for all teams to help boost sponsorship for the season.
I realize there's a lot of details to make something like this work (for example, how to add in teams overseas), but I think that making this work would be tremedously easier than trying to tackle the near impossible challenge of dreaming up a new format for our sport that can be everything to everyone (this thread itself makes my point).
Let's stop trying to reinvent the wheel. We have two great formats, both refined fairly well. Let's get organized and show the world we can be united and worry about the format later. I feel worrying about the format is like putting the cart before the horse, and that isn't going to take us very far in today's world.
Paintball has grown tremendously, and the competitive side (tournament) has really branched into two distinct camps as I see it, Xball and 7man. Yes, there are 5 man and 3 man events everywhere, but the sport, the future, will come from Xball or 7man (or a variation of 7 man if M7 is all as good as what's been said in this thread)
As I read comments about reunification here and elsewhere, one of the largest challenges discussed is what format would we play. The pros and cons to the format really depend on where you stand, and unfortunately, most of us do stand on one side or the other, so neither side really agrees on what is best.
The thought that I mentioned at the beginning of this post address the point of format. I asked myself, why do we need a single format? Sure, for the hopes of TV, perhaps we do. (This would of course be my bottom dwelling sight limitations talking, but sometimes a naive thought can be a great idea simply because it isn't saddled with baggage.) But is TV really what we need at this point?
As paintball stands today, we sorely lack organization as a sport. Reunification is looked to as the solution for this problem, and it probably will be. But reunification doesn't solve the problem of format, though it would have to bring about some sort of solution to the problem in order bring about the standardization/organization that we desperately need. So what do we do?
My idea is simple...Keep both formats. Here's the basic concept:
1. One Paintball season (I'd like Sept to May to avoid summer heat!)
2. Run a 3 event Xball division and a 3 event 7man division
3. Accumulate series points based on performance in both divisions
4. End of season you have Xball Champions and 7man Champions.
5. Series Champions based on the overall point leader??
6. Optional idea on Series Champions would be a 7th event, televised (perhaps paid for by % of entry from season, industry, advertising, etc?), showcasing both formats, top teams earning the right to attend based on performance. Teams play both formats here, winner is the champion. Guarantee TV time for all teams to help boost sponsorship for the season.
I realize there's a lot of details to make something like this work (for example, how to add in teams overseas), but I think that making this work would be tremedously easier than trying to tackle the near impossible challenge of dreaming up a new format for our sport that can be everything to everyone (this thread itself makes my point).
Let's stop trying to reinvent the wheel. We have two great formats, both refined fairly well. Let's get organized and show the world we can be united and worry about the format later. I feel worrying about the format is like putting the cart before the horse, and that isn't going to take us very far in today's world.
Hi Jester,
I can see the attractions of the propsal, however the practicalites of making the flip/flop switch for the sake of only three events means that:
Teams have to carry an Xball sized roster for use in only three events
Organisers have investments like netting and fields that need to be average out. An Xball scoreboard for three events becomes mighty expensive - although i concede certain things are common just simply netting would be a hassle.
Practically the changing of formats so much wont allow consistancy for the team - What do they practice? and for only a few events at each format I don't see anyone going for it.
Now a single league with M7 for the divisions and Xball for the Pros - that might work due to commonality.
I can see the attractions of the propsal, however the practicalites of making the flip/flop switch for the sake of only three events means that:
Teams have to carry an Xball sized roster for use in only three events
Organisers have investments like netting and fields that need to be average out. An Xball scoreboard for three events becomes mighty expensive - although i concede certain things are common just simply netting would be a hassle.
Practically the changing of formats so much wont allow consistancy for the team - What do they practice? and for only a few events at each format I don't see anyone going for it.
Now a single league with M7 for the divisions and Xball for the Pros - that might work due to commonality.
late to this thread also......
Since I have been playing both leagues since the split I can give a little insight on what we feel.(or at least myself).
Right now most of us "Pros" don’t make enough money in this sport to quit our real jobs. You can say some of the top teams get paid. Sure we get paid some but not enough to live on. Also Some teams waive this golden carrot but how many really follow thru?? But that’s another subject.
The current schedule and season is ridiculous for most of us. Unless real money starts coming you will start season your current “Pros’” start to drop off. The way it’s going most of the tournament players will either be young kids(that don’t have jobs or ambitions to go to college) or players that work within the industry.
Most of my season VETs have put there real life on hold to focus on paintball. How long can they do this?? I don’t know, I’m lucky enough to have a family and job that lets me be flexible and make most of the tournaments.
Our season is so long that it’s tough to train and maintain our skill set for 10 months out of the year.
Below is my “PIPE” dream…….
1. One League/ 1 format (5/6man) Max roster 10 players
2. X-ball type format (I read up on the M7 seems pretty cool. You get the best of both worlds. In that type of format I would like to have longer games.)
3. 7-8 tournaments (Maybe the 8th being the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP Only taking the TOP ten)
4. March-Oct (approx 1 per month)
a. This type of schedule would permit most working/students attend all the tournaments.
b. Tournaments played Fri-Sun
This type of format would let our vendors and sponsors really put money back into the league without having to budget for 11 tournaments. I think you would see more vendor participation. Did you see SD?? I didn’t go to the MAO but I heard is was pretty much the same…..
This format would let players train properly and with the MAX roster you don’t have fly 20 people for 5 days to a XBALL event. I think you would see better games.
I’m living this ****!!! And it does need to change.
Later,
Rocky
Since I have been playing both leagues since the split I can give a little insight on what we feel.(or at least myself).
Right now most of us "Pros" don’t make enough money in this sport to quit our real jobs. You can say some of the top teams get paid. Sure we get paid some but not enough to live on. Also Some teams waive this golden carrot but how many really follow thru?? But that’s another subject.
The current schedule and season is ridiculous for most of us. Unless real money starts coming you will start season your current “Pros’” start to drop off. The way it’s going most of the tournament players will either be young kids(that don’t have jobs or ambitions to go to college) or players that work within the industry.
Most of my season VETs have put there real life on hold to focus on paintball. How long can they do this?? I don’t know, I’m lucky enough to have a family and job that lets me be flexible and make most of the tournaments.
Our season is so long that it’s tough to train and maintain our skill set for 10 months out of the year.
Below is my “PIPE” dream…….
1. One League/ 1 format (5/6man) Max roster 10 players
2. X-ball type format (I read up on the M7 seems pretty cool. You get the best of both worlds. In that type of format I would like to have longer games.)
3. 7-8 tournaments (Maybe the 8th being the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP Only taking the TOP ten)
4. March-Oct (approx 1 per month)
a. This type of schedule would permit most working/students attend all the tournaments.
b. Tournaments played Fri-Sun
This type of format would let our vendors and sponsors really put money back into the league without having to budget for 11 tournaments. I think you would see more vendor participation. Did you see SD?? I didn’t go to the MAO but I heard is was pretty much the same…..
This format would let players train properly and with the MAX roster you don’t have fly 20 people for 5 days to a XBALL event. I think you would see better games.
I’m living this ****!!! And it does need to change.
Later,
Rocky
I like the way PSP does things now, where competing becomes progressively more involved as you move up the totem pole. At the bottom is nice, easy, 5-man, and at the top is full-on XBall. The more serious the team, the more involved the format.
I woud like to see a drive to a roster size of 10 or 12 though, even in the NXL. Don't change the format, just get players used to ... well... playing. Pro basketball players can run 60 minutes of playtime with 12 guys, surely paintball players can handle 30 minutes of comparatively static playtime with 12.
At the top, that means everyone saves money by not having to cart around so many players (without feeling like they're at a disadvantage over those who do), and also makes more players available for more 2nd level teams. PSP would have a healtheir D1 if NXL rosters were trimmed down to 12 players.
I don't like the 3 7-man/3 XBall idea, for basically the reasons already mentioned. I had given some thought to basically taking the PSP event schdule and swapping 5-man for 7-man so you could carry on with both formats, but I have no idea how the pros would play both, what you gain by doing both formats, anddon't like losing the 'ramp-up' in formats from having 5-man.
Really, someone is just going to have to suck it up and realize that their format is going to be discontinued, or some 'middleground' format is going to have to be found. Two parallel formats is just about as dumb as two leagues.
Of course, no one in paintball is capable of taking that kind of hit to their ego, so I'm sure people will continue to just fight each other. At themoment, I predict NO reunification for next year, but some political reordering instead.
I woud like to see a drive to a roster size of 10 or 12 though, even in the NXL. Don't change the format, just get players used to ... well... playing. Pro basketball players can run 60 minutes of playtime with 12 guys, surely paintball players can handle 30 minutes of comparatively static playtime with 12.
At the top, that means everyone saves money by not having to cart around so many players (without feeling like they're at a disadvantage over those who do), and also makes more players available for more 2nd level teams. PSP would have a healtheir D1 if NXL rosters were trimmed down to 12 players.
I don't like the 3 7-man/3 XBall idea, for basically the reasons already mentioned. I had given some thought to basically taking the PSP event schdule and swapping 5-man for 7-man so you could carry on with both formats, but I have no idea how the pros would play both, what you gain by doing both formats, anddon't like losing the 'ramp-up' in formats from having 5-man.
Really, someone is just going to have to suck it up and realize that their format is going to be discontinued, or some 'middleground' format is going to have to be found. Two parallel formats is just about as dumb as two leagues.
Of course, no one in paintball is capable of taking that kind of hit to their ego, so I'm sure people will continue to just fight each other. At themoment, I predict NO reunification for next year, but some political reordering instead.
I like Rocky's idea. Where do we vote?
I think a far more interesting question is what happens if the leagues do not merge? As Rocky said, this is getting to be a bit much. I have players taking 11 trips a year (not to mention missing days for practice on occasion). It's not sustainable. I figure my guys have another year of this kind of travel, and then I'll start losing people from one format or the other. If the leagues merge, I go with the flow. But if they don't....
I think a far more interesting question is what happens if the leagues do not merge? As Rocky said, this is getting to be a bit much. I have players taking 11 trips a year (not to mention missing days for practice on occasion). It's not sustainable. I figure my guys have another year of this kind of travel, and then I'll start losing people from one format or the other. If the leagues merge, I go with the flow. But if they don't....
I agree with Rocky.
As a vendor and as media (Pbstar.com) I agree the split leagues are taking a huge toll. At this point it's kind of an event-to-event thing if Pbstar will even show up. The companies I'm involved with that have booths feel the same way. In fact I know of one company that will pull out of tournaments all together next year.
I can't even imagine the physical toll it is taking on the players.
Financially, sponsoring the league is not viable. For the media covering every event does not make financial sense either. Being a "pro" is not financially viable either. Hey running the league itself is not financially viable! We've got a bunch of bad business decisions being made for no reason other than we don't like the consequences of not continuing to make these bad business decisions. Something has got to give.
At the same time, if we lose the Xball type format (scoreboards, penalties, etc) I think it would be a huge loss for paintball.
Maybe we just call it a day and go back to the woods...
As a vendor and as media (Pbstar.com) I agree the split leagues are taking a huge toll. At this point it's kind of an event-to-event thing if Pbstar will even show up. The companies I'm involved with that have booths feel the same way. In fact I know of one company that will pull out of tournaments all together next year.
I can't even imagine the physical toll it is taking on the players.
Financially, sponsoring the league is not viable. For the media covering every event does not make financial sense either. Being a "pro" is not financially viable either. Hey running the league itself is not financially viable! We've got a bunch of bad business decisions being made for no reason other than we don't like the consequences of not continuing to make these bad business decisions. Something has got to give.
At the same time, if we lose the Xball type format (scoreboards, penalties, etc) I think it would be a huge loss for paintball.
Maybe we just call it a day and go back to the woods...
In all my days, I never thought I'd say this: I agree with Rocky Knuth. Not only that, but I pretty much agree in entirety to his whole argument. I'll add this:
1) The fields need more variety than the X-Ball setups offer, but not quite as much as six different setups that S7 events present every event. There should one or two field setups every event, no more, and they should be creative with a variety of bunkers.
2) We should consider 6 players on the field. It gives 2 left, 2 center, 2 right field equality like other sports and forces both existing leagues to compromise a guy. Rosters should be limited at NO MORE than 10 people total, so that teams are not being out rostered by money or player pool size- pro through DIII.
3) Let's use this as the time to bring the rate of fire in serious control. Allow modes with a lower cap, like 12 bps, or let's try to bring things under an umbrella of semi automatic again.
Not only that, but I pretty much agree in entirety to his whole argument. I'll add this:1) The fields need more variety than the X-Ball setups offer, but not quite as much as six different setups that S7 events present every event. There should one or two field setups every event, no more, and they should be creative with a variety of bunkers.
2) We should consider 6 players on the field. It gives 2 left, 2 center, 2 right field equality like other sports and forces both existing leagues to compromise a guy. Rosters should be limited at NO MORE than 10 people total, so that teams are not being out rostered by money or player pool size- pro through DIII.
3) Let's use this as the time to bring the rate of fire in serious control. Allow modes with a lower cap, like 12 bps, or let's try to bring things under an umbrella of semi automatic again.
Maybe I'm just being dense here, but if we are playing an X-Ball format (one that allows for only a short turn-around time between games), shouldn't we at least allow for a roster of two complete lines?
Thanks guys… I guess I’m not as crazy as I thought.
Most of the feedback I have heard from players, teams and vendors is we need to have 1 league and 1 format. So why isn’t it happening? Aren’t we the customers here? Isn’t the customer always right… hehehehe
Can U say UNION/UNION/UNION……..
Anyway 2 more tournaments to go.. Then I get a weekend off…
Jeff:
As far as the 10 players go... IMO its a better balance than 12. I see what you mean about having 2 squads, but with 10 players the coaching staff will play a part in keeping everything organized. Also 10 players vs. 12 saves a bunch of money when you factor in car rental, airfare, equipment ect..... 2 players doesnt seem like much but when you consider a 15%-20% Increase in personal you can cut that right off the top.
Later,
Rocky
PS. Robbo can you put a headlock on our “powers to be” and knock some sense into them!
Most of the feedback I have heard from players, teams and vendors is we need to have 1 league and 1 format. So why isn’t it happening? Aren’t we the customers here? Isn’t the customer always right… hehehehe
Can U say UNION/UNION/UNION……..
Anyway 2 more tournaments to go.. Then I get a weekend off…
Jeff:
As far as the 10 players go... IMO its a better balance than 12. I see what you mean about having 2 squads, but with 10 players the coaching staff will play a part in keeping everything organized. Also 10 players vs. 12 saves a bunch of money when you factor in car rental, airfare, equipment ect..... 2 players doesnt seem like much but when you consider a 15%-20% Increase in personal you can cut that right off the top.
Later,
Rocky
PS. Robbo can you put a headlock on our “powers to be” and knock some sense into them!