Is Reunification still in the cards?

[Robbo]

Chicago,

you make it sound so reasonable and straightforward - and make it sound like NPPL is ultimately at fault for 'not including half the industry...' or some misparaphrase like it.

So sorry to have to be contrary, but the entire conversation was completely negative in nature. The REASON given for the pulling of ESPN/IMG support for NPPL was strictly the willingness of the other folks to pney up large dollars for airtime and production.

The committment was already made - the money being put up was for prizes - not for production.

There most definately was a hint of 'why can't you people get your act together' - but it was definately in the context of - how come the NXL teams didn't just go on over to NPPL and work something out.

The NPPL deal WAS better than what happened in CT: there was the outside money on the table - with avenues opening to all kinds of additional outside dollars (Intel being one of them - some dollars that would have gone from them to TV went to team sponsorships instead because there was no longer a tv deal) - but it seems that some people's attitude is that if they can't be IN CHARGE, no one will be.

This little tantrum has set us back imeasurably - the industry had the deal and it shouldn't have mattered who it was with - as you claim - it should have been supported whole-heartedly by all.

We'll now have to be content with magazine shows (such as the effort with Paintball World Television News that I'm supporting along with some others) and simply wait for enough time to go before something is attemtped again.

Steve, we have known each other a long time, and in that time I have come to respect your intellect and your experience in this beloved sport we both immerse ourselves in.
However, I do think sometimes you fall foul of an almost pathological hatred of our common friend (JB).
You see him as the devil incarnate, I just see him as a greedy little man, more interested in money than anything else but I do still like him as a social person. I can actually see a good side to him but because of your past experiences with him, I think this can cause your real problems when it comes to a correct analysis of a situation.

And I think this mindset sometimes, not always, clouds or rather slightly impairs your rationale when dealing with anything relating to you know who and his colleagues, in this case, the Gardners.

I honestly believe, that a billion dollar corporation such as ESPN won't give two sh!ts about the sort of money SP put in to promo their TV deal with them.

If the NPPL show had been of sufficient quality (In ESPN's eyes I mean) then the fact SP came up with a couple of hundred of grand ain't gonna mean sh!t mate.
As I see it, those ESPN guys don't fack about, if they feel a particular show has got legs, then they will go for it. Do people honestly think ESPN are gonna piss around playing silly waiting games just because SP put up that money???

Nah, if ESPN thought that NPPL/IMG promotion had enough legs, they'd go for it, end of, no argument, they'd say 'bollox to SP, bollocks to Braun, let's go get it'.

This absolute belief that SP / Braun have skuttled the whole TV deal thing on their own is merely a subjective argument borne out of a checkered history ... well that's my respectful opinion anyway.

 

[Chicago]

you make it sound so reasonable and straightforward - and make it sound like NPPL is ultimately at fault for 'not including half the industry...' or some misparaphrase like it.

Close - I think they are *ALL* at fault. NPPL, Smart Parts, Jerry, everybody else. NXL made a mistake in 2004 with their show isolated some key players (and it just being of poor quality in general, you'd think they'd have learned to keep Jerry away from anything TV related the first two times through), NPPL repeated the mistake, then Smart Parts and Jerry repeated the mistake AGAIN, only worse, since they pissed off half of the NXL while they were at it.

NPPL is just the latest party whining because they feel *THEIR* television plans were thwarted by somebody else in the industry who just wasn't going to sit around and be left out of the 'paintball on television' landscape. If the situation were reversed, and Smart Parts had a TV deal, do you think for one second that NPPL would pass up a chance to be on TV that would harm Smart Parts' show? Of course not!


The problem isn't that Smart Parts wanted to be part of paintball on television. The problem is that nobody seems able to sit down, set aside differences, and present a unified front to television. (Well, that's one of the problems, there are others). And NPPL is no less guilty of causing that problem than Smart Parts is, they just happen to be the party with the short end of the stick at the moment.


Don't worry, unless these guys figure out how to work together, or one of them does the things they need to do to make their programming insurmountably better than anything anybody else can offer, this same **** is going to continue and we're going to get the same result we've been getting since 1994:

Nothing.

This little tantrum has set us back imeasurably - the industry had the deal and it shouldn't have mattered who it was with - as you claim - it should have been supported whole-heartedly by all.

Which tantrum? The Smart Parts tantrum, or the tantrum in 2002 that led to the split in the first place?

They arn't any different, except for which side you happen to like.


And *WHY* should it have been supported by all? Did NPPL give anybody else any reason to support it? If Smart Parts gets a good deal that they control, should we expect everyone to just fall into line behind that 'for the good of the sport'?

It's not realistic to expect people to be so selfless, even if you accept that 'just falling into line' is what's actually best for the sport, which I don't think it is. One or a handful of paintball manufacturers controlling the television presentation is not good for the sport and should not be supported at all.

 

[Robbo]

^^^^^^^^ I think the above post by Chicago pretty much states perfectly the real situation as it stands.


Chi - I think the pair of us are getting old (obviously I am slightly more advanced than you I know) because I keep agreeing with you ......hmmmmmmm. if Baca throws his hat in with us, I think we should all call it a day and leave Missy and brockdwarf to slug it out...oh sh!te, I forgot, brockdwarf is banned, wasn't much of a contest anyway with the big black momma consistently pummeling the crap out of him, still, someone might appear from the flotsam and jetsam of paintball's midwaters to take on Missy so we can remain entertained.

 

[SPHEREPOINT]

Jeez, don't forget about me! Although, in this case, I'm pretty much in agreement with Chicago. ESPN has now had the ability to pick the paintball TV they want. They try the NPPL's deal, and like it. Well, before they renew the NPPL deal, they'll try the SP production, which they were paid to put on the air! ESPN, as always, is profiting from a schizm in our ranks. And as I remember, Billy and Adam didn't shut out the other half of the NXL, they just didn't like the terms! For anyone to think that ESPN doesn't have a very solid idea of our internal turmoil is incredibly naive. They are a large television corporation, and they know the clients they enter into deals with. ESPN sees a divided group- each faction vying for their attention. They then pick and choose and pick us apart until they get the best possible deal from our little sport!

 

[Robbo]

Sphere, do u know who Gaunt is?
I do know he is one of two people, he is either SR or 'a little meal', can you be more concise??

And since you are in contact with both, tell whichever one it is to be a man and step out from under his mother's petticoat and decloak on here.

 

[Chicago]

Jeez, don't forget about me! Although, in this case, I'm pretty much in agreement with Chicago. ESPN has now had the ability to pick the paintball TV they want. They try the NPPL's deal, and like it. Well, before they renew the NPPL deal, they'll try the SP production, which they were paid to put on the air! ESPN, as always, is profiting from a schizm in our ranks. And as I remember, Billy and Adam didn't shut out the other half of the NXL, they just didn't like the terms! For anyone to think that ESPN doesn't have a very solid idea of our internal turmoil is incredibly naive. They are a large television corporation, and they know the clients they enter into deals with. ESPN sees a divided group- each faction vying for their attention. They then pick and choose and pick us apart until they get the best possible deal from our little sport!

That's close, but you're missing one key ingredient: Paintball programming does not currently pay for itself. Someone has to take a loss to put it on the air, whether that be the network (hah!), a marketing firm (ala IMG) or a paintball league/company (ala NPPL/NXL/Smart Parts).

*IF* paintball were PROPERLY marketed, and thus the programming was PROFITABLE, the network would definitely not be letting Smart Parts buy airtime. They'd be buying/producing programming directly and selling the advertising themselves because that'd be the way they'd make the most money.

*IF* the NPPL show had attracted serious advertising dollars, Smart Parts would have already been out of options. It would have been over, because the profit from serious advertisers is GREATER than the profit from selling TV time, ergo, selling TV time instead of ad time would be stupid. But it didn't. And there are reasons it didn't, and those reasons have nothing to do with format, or show quality.

 

[SteveD]

Pete,

because I am aware of the fact that my 'relationship' with the people you mentioned can potentially "cloud my judgement", I take great pains to investigate and analyze situations involving them that I might care to comment on.

To add a little more weight to my argument, here is a brief history:

the 'other folks' USED NPPL as a bargaining chip and misrepresented themselves in order to obtain the first ESPN airing; they claimed to own and represent the league, giving them a bargaining position and then 'offered' to allow the actual owners of the league (the teams) to participate so long as they paid for the priviledge

the 'other folks' brought a lawsuit (unfounded in my opinion) against ESPN when it was obvious that they had lost their backing and needed an excuse to get out from under the wrath of their other investors; this soured one of THE most influential people in sports broadcasting on the sport

the 'other folks' denied the member teams a right to vote, failed to pay any of the dividends that member teams were entitled to and then disenfranchised every member except for their close friends by creating a 'promoters organization'; to be fair, it was almost equally the teams fault for not participating, not being involved and not having the balls to fight for their own rights.

the 'other folks' misrepresented themselves as owners of the NPPL when someone (Chuck and pure promotions) chose to end the relationship with the 'promoters group' and go in a different direction; they actually accused Chuck and PP of 'stealing' the league from them and attempted to sour everyone on the new NPPL by re-naming their organization, scheduling events on top of NPPL events and etc.

the 'other folks' disenfranchised multiple NXL teams for their latest endeavor.

YOU may not recognize a pattern here, but I certainly do.

So far as broadcast is concerned: the broadcast world does not give a rats fart about paintball. if anything, they have characterized the industry as a bunch of crazies who have an extremely warped sense of the relationship between a property and the broadcaster, that can be characterized with the following question: "who the hell do those guys think they are?"

The CT shoot and broadcast plans DID IN FACT bollox the ESPN deal. For two reasons. 1. no one in television wants to get involved. 2. ESPN and IMG were 'willing to work with NPPL' on their thing, providing support and some money as they figured out the best way to make it work for everyone. they were not backing it completely, but their toe was in the water. Now we have this situation - the 'conniption in connecticut' and they are no longer willing to be involved.

No matter how you slice it - OUR industry has shot itself in the foot once again and demonstrated to the outside world that we have not got our act together and can't be worked with.

 

[Chicago]

There is nobody in pro paintball who has a leg to stand on as far as 'representing the players'. You can say anything you want about the 'other folks', but the 'other other folks' ended up doing exactly the same thing.

Not that I think a 'player-owned league' is necessarily good, but let's not play mental tricks where we pretend one side is different from the other.

 

[Robbo]

Pete,

because I am aware of the fact that my 'relationship' with the people you mentioned can potentially "cloud my judgement", I take great pains to investigate and analyze situations involving them that I might care to comment on......................

..................No matter how you slice it - OUR industry has shot itself in the foot once again and demonstrated to the outside world that we have not got our act together and can't be worked with.

Steve, I am in no position to deny of the things you mentioned mainly because I also am aware of them happening in past years.
The distancing of the ESPN in those early years tho wasn't down to the 'other folks', as you are aware it was wholly down to JB and the way he did business (or more accurately didn't do business) in that early production and showing.
Subsequently however, things pretty much unfolded as you suggest but I will take issue with one thing, the reasons you give for justifying your assertion of the SP deal fackin up the whole TV apple cart aren't wholly correct (in my opinion).
Your reason 1 that ESPN (or anyone) wants to get involved in Paintball isn't wholly down to that SP deal mate, it is a tapestry of reasons of which that was only one.
And your reason 2 indulges itself because if ESPN were so willing to dip their toe in the water with a partial backing, then I just cannot bring myself to believe they would have been deterred purely by what SP, it just don't stack up mate.

Let's face it Steve, Paintball, for however much we all want it to appear on the box, isn't that attractive as investment..basically it's marginal in that sense and with it being marginal, it doesn't take that much for people to be put off and I believe there are many reasons why they have been put off.

I really like Chicago's post (8 posts back) on this subject and I think it perfectly explains the reasons why we have arrived at this point.
As far as I can discern, Chicago has no real axes to grind with anybody and his assessment is about as objective as you can get, well that particular post was in my estimation.

But I tell you what Steve, I have never met anybody like you in my life who has such a memory for detail ... it's in'frikkin'credible the stuff you remember from times past.
I think I remember someone once describing you as the Don Quixote of paintball (tilting at windmills) and I just wonder if you could stick that lance somewhere, I would have a pretty good guess whose ass it's gonna be directed up.

 

[Baca Loco]

Not that it matters one iota but I am broadly in agreement with Chicago's assessment of the situation, some portions, yes, that's right and other parts, hell yeah!
But with regards to reunification and TV and personalities and "winning" etc. it seems to me that we're very nearly right back where we started at the beginning of the 06 season with the prospect of simply continuing the war of attrition and the NPPL/PP faction isn't in a good place to wage that war. A simple look at the numbers is all you need. And while it is fairly said Chuck didn't deliver on the outside support PP hasn't exactly done a stellar job of it either (which is an extension really of my argument vis-a-vis the stadium venues) and if PP doesn't shake things up someway, somehow they remain at real risk, TV or no TV.