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The Saviours of UK Paintball ?????

Tony Harrison

What is your beef with the Mac?
Mar 13, 2007
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@Missy-Q, in a previous thread you described most paintball players as "hobbyists". If the hobby gets too expensive, they give it up.

In my last post I tripled the total expenses figure to £150,000. I think that might cover everything, and I picked the Bitburg event randomly.

I accept what you're saying about turf, netting, grandstands, etc, but we're not dealing with a bunch of greenhorns here. Stephen, Ulrich & Laurent have been running international tournaments longer that most young players have been alive, so they will have worked out a long time ago how to make them profitable. Stephen wouldn't run four events a year just to make a couple of grand and have a warm fuzzy feeling inside that he's done it "for the players".

I think the question is "How much is MS making now, and how much do they want to make?" But like I say, nobody is going to give me that information. And there's the rub - why should players pay more to enter without any evidence to justify the increase, just because the MS is the only horse in town?

If Ainsley takes over the MS, great. I'll go just because he is a great guy. If the Yanks take over, great. I love the Yanks. They're much more polite than the Brits.
 

Missy-Q

300lb of Chocolate Love
Jul 31, 2007
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@Missy-Q, in a previous thread you described most paintball players as "hobbyists". If the hobby gets too expensive, they give it up..
Yes, I did, and they are. They are into paintball the way that guys get into golf, or jet-skiing, or regular skiing...

In my last post I tripled the total expenses figure to £150,000. I think that might cover everything, and I picked the Bitburg event randomly..
You increased your math by a random multiple you thought would be safe. You still have nothing to back up the numbers. You don't know how many people you need, where they live, what the flights and hotels will cost, you even guestimate at what they are being paid. How many rental cars do you need? How many golf carts? Is the venue unionised? How long is set-up? How long is tear-down? Is anyone in charge? What do those guys get paid? You have thrown out an arbitrary number that you think has to be able to cover everything, but you have no idea whatsoever on what anything is costing you...

I accept what you're saying about turf, netting, grandstands, etc, but we're not dealing with a bunch of greenhorns here. Stephen, Ulrich & Laurent have been running international tournaments longer that most young players have been alive, so they will have worked out a long time ago how to make them profitable. Stephen wouldn't run four events a year just to make a couple of grand and have a warm fuzzy feeling inside that he's done it "for the players"...
I agree that they have in the past worked out how the events can be profitable - of course they have, but that was with 150-220 teams wasn't it? Now that attendance is dropping, the math doesn't work the same. With lower attendance come higher prices, at least if you want the same product. This situation is not unique to paintball..

I think the question is "How much is MS making now, and how much do they want to make?" But like I say, nobody is going to give me that information. And there's the rub - why should players pay more to enter without any evidence to justify the increase, just because the MS is the only horse in town?..
1. The same reason they pay more for everything else. **** should go up 2.5% just to cover inflation, every year.
2. No evidence was provided to me when my cable bill went up this spring. The communications company didn't send me their financials in order to convince me that they had to raise prices... In this case though, the evidence is there - lower participation numbers. That's some big, and very obvious evidence.
3. They are not the only horse in town. You have already mentioned 2 other horses in town.
4. The league is not player owned. The players are owed no information whatsoever regarding the finances of the league. They are buying a product, nothing more. The league/player relationship is purely transactional.


If Ainsley takes over the MS, great. I'll go just because he is a great guy. If the Yanks take over, great. I love the Yanks. They're much more polite than the Brits.
The likelihood of the guy you like best taking over the league you like best is slim at best. More possible would be a contracted position, but that's also highly unlikely. There are clear reasons that the CPPS can be cheaper, and I already mentioned them. There is no sensible reason to think that if your guy started running the MS that it would get any cheaper at all, in fact, with one guy bearing all the risk, the reverse would be more likely, and definitely more advisable... As always - be careful what you wish for!
 

Missy-Q

300lb of Chocolate Love
Jul 31, 2007
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One more thing..

I don't know Ainsley but from what I hear he's an asset to UK paintball. If Pete says he's doing a great job, that's good enough for me.
So, lets say he gets contracted to the MS for next season and you get your wish (Ainsley and the MS). I'm guessing he wants right around 20-30g for that, at best, and that's assuming the MS are cool with their competitor seeing their team list and having access to all that information (no way I would be OK with this).
That 20-30g goes on top of your running costs. How many more teams have to play in the MS just to pay for that additional overhead? How does adding that salary into the mix get you any closer to any of the things that you want? Now you are further away from lower entries than you were before, and have no more attendance than you started with.

Lastly - if leagues were easy, and super profitable (as you seem to think), wouldn't you have a wealth of choices already? Name something that's easy and profitable and doesn't exist in an overpopulated market...
 

Tony Harrison

What is your beef with the Mac?
Mar 13, 2007
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So all the MS needs to do now is to convince all the teams that aren't coming anymore that the league offers value for money and a better experience than playing another league offers them. Then they can put their prices up.

If the DPL is attracting 400 teams per event, what are they doing that the MS isn't?

Years ago, we had people on here complaining how they felt the MS was poor value, what was wrong with the MS and how badly treated they were by the MS. That was in the days of high attendance. So what made them stop going to MS events?

Maybe they gave up complaining because nobody listened, gave up going to MS events or just gave up playing altogether because the experience soured playing tournaments for them. Or maybe they just got old.

That's the thing - nobody comes on here to discuss stuff anymore, to talk about their experience at a tournament, or just to talk smack before an event. I miss that. Instead we now have speed posters trying to get classifieds access...
 

Dave S ECI

ECI + HFT
Jul 17, 2001
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If the DPL is attracting 400 teams per event, what are they doing that the MS isn't?
Sidebar but is the DPL attracting 400 teams per event? Or, are there 400 teams that play in the DPL? I was under the impression that the DPL hits those numbers by counting all teams playing under DPL branded events... anyone know the attendance at the biggest DPL event?
 

Tony Harrison

What is your beef with the Mac?
Mar 13, 2007
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Sidebar but is the DPL attracting 400 teams per event? Or, are there 400 teams that play in the DPL? I was under the impression that the DPL hits those numbers by counting all teams playing under DPL branded events... anyone know the attendance at the biggest DPL event?
Spikerz quoted that figure earlier in the thread.

If people wanting to play woodsball are the reason numbers for the MS are down, then maybe they could go full circle and offer a woodsball series alongside the supair events.
 

Dave S ECI

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Spikerz quoted that figure earlier in the thread.

If people wanting to play woodsball are the reason numbers for the MS are down, then maybe they could go full circle and offer a woodsball series alongside the supair events.
My understanding is that the DPL numbers are based on series attendance, split over regions etc, not in one event. Would be interesting how their biggest event compares to Cpps or whether cpps is a bigger unique event (set within a smaller national turn out of teams)

No way woodsball is impacting millennium right now
 
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Missy-Q

300lb of Chocolate Love
Jul 31, 2007
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German league prospers for the same reason the CPPS does. No international travel and lower commitment in time and finances.
Its apples and oranges. Little point comparing the 2 with the MS.
 

Robbo

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Jul 5, 2001
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I'm supposed to be going down to Steve Baldwin in the next few weeks or so and I'll ask him what he thinks of Jonathan's [Hansel] guesstimates but knowing Steve as I do, he's just as likely to tell him to 'Fuhk off and mind his own business' which of course is an understandable response because as Pete [Onasilverbike] suggests, Johnathan doesn't know specific details when it comes to the Millennium's outgoings for these events.
I know some of the expenditures but not all and so I'll ask the relevant questions when I meet up with Steve but once again, he might tell me to ‘fuhk off’ which of course is a real possibility but will automatically result in his next meal being administered through a straw [JK].

There are however a few things hovering in the background that could well influence the fate of the Millennium in the next few years.

Firstly, Steve Baldwin and Laurent are the principal owners of the Millennium series and although they both have business interests elsewhere [Steve has [had] Gi Sports [And Manic] over here in Europe whereas Laurent owns the Sup Air manufacturing company] and as far as I know, neither company has any control or share in the Millennium Series - it is owned by both of them personally.

Now, I don’t think I’m breaking anyone’s confidences here by saying that Steve has sold his share in Gi Europe to Richmond Italia and has an agreement whereby he will remain in operational charge of Gi Europe for the next year or so.
However, this does not mean he automatically surrenders his interest in the MS, that’s to be negotiated independently if and when there is an interested party wishing to secure the MS.
I’ve heard whispers but it remains to be confirmed but we’ll know a few more details as and when.

That aside, it’s no secret that Richmond Italia, owner of Gi-Sports [US] has been in acquisition mode these past couple of years.
He’s purchased Tippmann for over $100 million and then a year or so ago, he bought Kee, another industry behemoth for well over another $100 million and so it’s safe to say that he puts his money where his mouth is.

More significantly, Richmond jointly owns the NXL which is the major tournament series Stateside and so it’s hardly heretical to suggest that Richmond could be interested in securing the MS, in fact, it makes perfect sense to me not least because it enables him to consolidate his diverse and manifold interests in the marketplace - I must state though, I know of no specific interest or offer to purchase the MS.

Industry Landscape

Never before has one man owned/controlled so much interest in both the industry marketplace and tournament series and so the natural question to ask is, 'Do these acquisitions cause a problem for the players and teams in the NXL and maybe the MS?
Well, I think, it all depends upon who's running the show and what he wants to do with it.

I’ve known Richmond for over 20 years and have a fair idea what he's about and in my opinion, I think he would want to take our sport in q direction that can only help us in the mid to long term and so I have no reservations concerning his influence in the tournament world - I've had a fair few conversations with him over the past couple of years, and his commercial plan of action is simple enough.
His acquisitions of Tippmann and Kee for his Gi stable of companies will prove pivotal to his business plan because his strategy is predicated upon the most basic of business formulas which goes something like, ‘The more you own in a specific marketplace, the greater the degree of control you can wield’, hardly rocket-science I know but it takes someone who has enough money, sufficient determination/commitment to push the plan through.
It's true to say that in the past ten years or so, certain products, primarily paint has been artificially suppressed due to far east concerns undercutting the European and American market.
And since paint has traditionally been a vehicle on which to sell other products, the artificially low price undercuts both paint sales and related other product sales.
Richmond's acquisition plan enables him to address this problem by having a greater degree of control by virtue of his industry presence.
The irony is, some of his competitors will benefit from this but I don't think that's a real problem anyway.

If and when the MS deal does happen, Richmond will want a seamless as possible changeover to his ownership, and with concerns like this, the new owner needs to ensure that it's ‘Business as Usual’ for all the teams/vendors across Europe.

To achieve that though, he has to get someone who is capable of managing such a transition, and is also a trusted individual - And in my head, there’s only one candidate, and he stands apart from all other prospects.
I think Ainsley has all the necessary management skills and business acumen to secure the position but we’ll have to wait and see what happens.
Now, this is all speculation on my part and I honestly don't know of any specific talks that anyone has had concerning the MS but I do know a little about how things tend to go in the paintball world.

There will be some interesting times ahead ....
 
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Tony Harrison

What is your beef with the Mac?
Mar 13, 2007
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Thanks, @Robbo. Much appreciated!

Don't bother asking the question, I know what the answer will be!

And If GI takes over the MS and puts Ainsley in charge, that's all good! That explains why I've often seen Steve Rabackoff at the CPPS......