The Saviours of UK Paintball ?????

[Missy-Q]

Thing about costs is this:
Lets agree that Pete's number of 120 teams at the current price is the break-even point.
Businesses are supposed to do better than break-even, but let's leave that alone for now, and assume that the MS are happy to spin the wheels (they aren't, but lets stay in utopia for a minute...)
If you dropped the price 20%, but wanted the same break-even dollar amount, you would need 24 additional teams paying/playing. Where do those teams come from?
Can an additional 24 teams play on the same number of fields with the same number of refs? I'm guessing they can't, and that you need another field, with a reffing crew. OK, that costs money, so now we need another 10 teams to cover that expense and bring us back to break-even again. That's more 35 teams. Where do we get those from? Team numbers are already dropping, so how can we magic-up another 35 of them?

Unless we're saying that what we want is to stick with 120 teams, and then lower the price? Now we are 20% under the break-even price. How does that work? How long does that league operate at a 20% loss?

If you ask me, the price needs to be higher in order for the league to be healthy and sustainable. I'd rather see a capped 80 team league paying 10-20% more, than try to work it the other way. I can use less fields, fewer refs, maybe even make the event shorter, all of which saves me money and allows me to do a stronger job and deliver more to the 80 teams playing. Teams would not be able to get in at that stage, which actually makes a spot valuable and maybe even tradable.

The people that can't afford to play, well, they can't afford to play. There are a million things I can't afford to do but wished I could, and guess what - I don't do any of those things, and nor do I whine about it.

 

[Robbo]

Missy, I just hope we can hang onto the Millennium because should it have its armband removed, the consequences aren't too promising.
I'm sure there'll be a few idiots dancing on their grave should it happen but I'm not really sure what effect it would have in terms of there not being a European league series???

 

[Missy-Q]

No doubt Pete, Europe needs the MS. It drives equipment sales and helps to keep us relevant.

That said though, if 120 teams is break-even, and they are expecting less than 120 next season, prices have to go up, or stuff has to be removed (prizes etc) in order to balance the books.
No-one runs a league for the laughs, as we both know..

 

[Tony Harrison]

My knee-jerk reaction is to say....Ainsley runs 5 events a year at CPPS, each of which attract around 130 teams across 7 divisions. The divisions are always full, apart from the odd no-show in the lower divisions. He's taken an event that was once run in a muddy field and transformed it into something that UK teams have to compete in to be validated.

So, what is Ainsley doing that the MS isn't? Or are UK players tight, or do they just want value for money - which the CPPS seems to be giving them?

If the MS entry fees are perceived to be too high, then increasing them isn't the solution. There just isn't the enthusiasm for playing the MS - or money - that was swilling around 10+ years ago, so what people would have paid top dollar for then doesn't apply now.

I think enthusiasm for playing is key here, because if you have that fire inside you to play, you will get the money somehow - either by selling stuff, working as a lapdancer, and so on.

I've never run a series of events, I've only worked them as a Ref. Historically, I've done Mayhem, MS, PSP, CPPS, Hyperball, Forest Nationals, and a few others, alongside some of my older friends, so I can only tell you the feeling from the customer at ground level - they all feel the MS is expensive. And they all felt the most recent Campaign Cup was terrible. Refs sometimes work the MS from 7 in the morning to 9 at night. That's some hard time. But that's a different subject.

The top UK teams can only afford to play the MS season after season because of the support of their sponsors - Disruption and Firm alone have been plugging away for at least 10 years, and that is some serious coin to drop on paintball.

Change is inevitable. A case in point is the US Pro circuit. Since the early 2000's, they've had the PSP, the NPPL, NPPL 2.0, the death of the NPPL followed by the dominance of the PSP, the death of the PSP, and now the NXL. You could argue that only the owners have changed, but they've changed nonetheless. In Europe, over the same timeframe, we have had the MS with a monopoly. The CPS has tried to challenge the MS, but I don't think their events are as good as the MS.

So.....I believe we are left with only three alternatives:-

1. Ainsley takes over the MS and restructures it.
2. The MS is sold to the Americans.
3. We all take up airsoft. Or golf.

 

[Tony Harrison]

Seeing as we are talking about the MS raising entry fees, let's throw a few sums out there.

As at today's exchange rates, the CPL licence fee - per season, as you can't pay per event - is £10,434.

SPL is £5,662 per season.

D1 is £4,791 per season.

D2 is £1,361 per event.

D3 is £871 per event.

D4 is £817 per event.

Then, we look at turnout at an event. I've taken Bitburg 2017 as an example, and divided the licence fees per event.

CPL had 20 teams at £2608 per team = £52,160.
SPL, 20 teams at £1415 per team = £28,300.
D1, 33 teams at £1198 = £39,534.
D2, 20 teams at £1361 = £27,220.
D3, 40 teams at £871= £34,840
D4, 10 teams at £817 = £8,170.

Total of 143 teams, £190,224 in entry fees.

I'm assuming that the trade stands pay for each day they are there. I have no clue what they pay per day, so I'm just going to go in low and say £50 per day over 3 days for, say, 10 traders.that's £1500 in total.

That takes us to £191,724.00 in income.

Then we have event sponsors. Again, I have no idea whether they throw cash or product into the pot, so I'm going to go in low and say the sponsors contribute just over a couple of thousand. that takes us to around £194,000.00 in income from one event.

Then, we have outgoings. Let's allow 10 refs per field over 6 divisions for 3 days, and say we pay them £100 per day on average. That's £18,000.

Then there is event staff, build & takedown crew, so let's allow £20,000.

Cash prizes - in CPL only - are £9070.

That's £47,070 in expenses so far, then they have to pay for site hire, portaloos, etc. Let's allow another £13,000 for that.

I'm going to round that up to £60,000 in total for expenses.

That leaves £134,000.00 profit from one event. Multiplied out over 4 events, that's £536,000.00 profit per year.

I'm haven't mentioned the fees charged for ID cards or media passes, but I guess that might amount to an easy £5,000 over the year.

Conclusion: fire the Accountants.

If anyone is more well-informed regarding the actual figures for expenditures, post up.

 

[MattC]

£13,000 for Site Hire, Toilets and Air?.... You're way... way...way off.

 

[shoaibaktar]

Thing about costs is this:
Lets agree that Pete's number of 120 teams at the current price is the break-even point.
Businesses are supposed to do better than break-even, but let's leave that alone for now, and assume that the MS are happy to spin the wheels (they aren't, but lets stay in utopia for a minute...)
If you dropped the price 20%, but wanted the same break-even dollar amount, you would need 24 additional teams paying/playing. Where do those teams come from?
Can an additional 24 teams play on the same number of fields with the same number of refs? I'm guessing they can't, and that you need another field, with a reffing crew. OK, that costs money, so now we need another 10 teams to cover that expense and bring us back to break-even again. That's more 35 teams. Where do we get those from? Team numbers are already dropping, so how can we magic-up another 35 of them?

Unless we're saying that what we want is to stick with 120 teams, and then lower the price? Now we are 20% under the break-even price. How does that work? How long does that league operate at a 20% loss?

If you ask me, the price needs to be higher in order for the league to be healthy and sustainable. I'd rather see a capped 80 team league paying 10-20% more, than try to work it the other way. I can use less fields, fewer refs, maybe even make the event shorter, all of which saves me money and allows me to do a stronger job and deliver more to the 80 teams playing. Teams would not be able to get in at that stage, which actually makes a spot valuable and maybe even tradable.

The people that can't afford to play, well, they can't afford to play. There are a million things I can't afford to do but wished I could, and guess what - I don't do any of those things, and nor do I whine about it.

.Missy ,good post ,but there is no need to raise prices ,new fields .The product and price are sustainable ,just give players MORE of it.The down time of all fields is large .They move lower games up all to higher fields all the time .The bottom fields are being collapsed while the finals are being played.Scrap this international tosh and give the fields back to the people who are actually paying for it . If it falls all the bits that come with it will go as well. They are promoting 8 div1 teams to fill the void in SPL . Locked divisions losses at the current rate mean you may well have a spare field if div2 teams refuse to commit to a whole season and prefer the fun/pot hunting approach of div 2.

 

[onasilverbike]

Seeing as we are talking about the MS raising entry fees, let's throw a few sums out there.

As at today's exchange rates, the CPL licence fee - per season, as you can't pay per event - is £10,434.

SPL is £5,662 per season.

D1 is £4,791 per season.

D2 is £1,361 per event.

D3 is £871 per event.

D4 is £817 per event.

Then, we look at turnout at an event. I've taken Bitburg 2017 as an example, and divided the licence fees per event.

CPL had 20 teams at £2608 per team = £52,160.
SPL, 20 teams at £1415 per team = £28,300.
D1, 33 teams at £1198 = £39,534.
D2, 20 teams at £1361 = £27,220.
D3, 40 teams at £871= £34,840
D4, 10 teams at £817 = £8,170.

Total of 143 teams, £190,224 in entry fees.

I'm assuming that the trade stands pay for each day they are there. I have no clue what they pay per day, so I'm just going to go in low and say £50 per day over 3 days for, say, 10 traders.that's £1500 in total.

That takes us to £191,724.00 in income.

Then we have event sponsors. Again, I have no idea whether they throw cash or product into the pot, so I'm going to go in low and say the sponsors contribute just over a couple of thousand. that takes us to around £194,000.00 in income from one event.

Then, we have outgoings. Let's allow 10 refs per field over 6 divisions for 3 days, and say we pay them £100 per day on average. That's £18,000.

Then there is event staff, build & takedown crew, so let's allow £20,000.

Cash prizes - in CPL only - are £9070.

That's £47,070 in expenses so far, then they have to pay for site hire, portaloos, etc. Let's allow another £13,000 for that.

I'm going to round that up to £60,000 in total for expenses.

That leaves £134,000.00 profit from one event. Multiplied out over 4 events, that's £536,000.00 profit per year.

I'm haven't mentioned the fees charged for ID cards or media passes, but I guess that might amount to an easy £5,000 over the year.

Conclusion: fire the Accountants.

If anyone is more well-informed regarding the actual figures for expenditures, post up.

With no disrespect, you will never know the full costs involved unless you are actually running the event, or something similar!

Travel, accommodation for staff, refs and crew, and food and water?

Planning, permits and hospitality?

Fencing, netting, grandstands, transportation and storage, repairs and improvements to the equipment and infrastructure?

Hire of "Certified" structures (tents) required for France?

Diesel fuel, electricity and water?

EMS (St Johns ambulance etc.)

Etc., etc. etc.

 

[Tony Harrison]

With no disrespect, you will never know the full costs involved unless you are actually running the event, or something similar!

Travel, accommodation for staff, refs and crew, and food and water?

Planning, permits and hospitality?

Fencing, netting, grandstands, transportation and storage, repairs and improvements to the equipment and infrastructure?

Hire of "Certified" structures (tents) required for France?

Diesel fuel, electricity and water?

EMS (St Johns ambulance etc.)

Etc., etc. etc.

True, I won't know what the true costs are unless someone tells me. And they won't, because what business of mine is it to know what profit they're making?

So, if it is the case my estimate for expenses per event is too low at £60,000, I'll increase it to £150,000 per event.

That still leaves in excess of £40,000 profit per event to be split between the 3 Directors, or £160,000 per year split between Ulrich, Stephen and Laurent. That's on top of any income from their day jobs.

Regarding equipment, permits, etc., it's perhaps a coincidence that the four events are held in France, England and Germany, and the three Directors are French, English and German - all of whom are very experienced tournament promoters in their own countries.

And I doubt very much each event costs £150,000 to put on....

 

[Missy-Q]

Your expenses numbers are way off. You assume your refs live down the street and walk to work at every event. Same with your event staff. You allow $20g for set-up and tear-down. That's 10 grand each way. You won't even cover their hotel bill for that, never mind getting them there, feeding them and paying them - oh, and you will to hire an extra person to deal with all that payroll etc..
Do you own heavy equipment?
What about in between events, is anyone on staff and booking teams?? Do they need equipment in order to do their jobs?
Plus you're basing your math on one of the largest events. Typically 2 events per year are going to lose money. 1 for sure.
What about the moving of the turf/netting/fields, scoreboards etc between countries/events? Do you have that covered in your 10g?
What about bleachers? The bleachers at HB were $90,000. Do you want to provide a place for people to sit and watch games?
Should there be a free webcast? Of course, how else are we going to be able to watch without making any kind of contribution whatsoever...

I could go on, but the point is, if you think organisers are getting rich, and that the only thing that needs to happen is those fat cats need to drop prices and stop cramming their wallets with cash so that it can be more affordable for the players, you're not correct. Setting up one venue and running it can be pretty cheap if you're well organised. I am guessing this is what Ainsley does. Setting up an entire facility for one weekend and then tearing it down so that it looks like you have never been there, is very, very expensive.

I hate to ask, but are any of you doing anything else/buying anything else, that isn't getting more expensive as time goes by? No, right?
But paintball should get cheaper...