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bizy43

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Jun 25, 2006
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if god is everywhere at all times and places all at the same time so that god has no future past present or place he would not have to forget/delete
because he already knew and only changed your concept of reality not gods and did it only to adjust the grand plan (if there is one)
so could god chose to forget or do everything anything
personally i haven't come to terms with the size of the universe let alone what a god could do not total convinced god exists or what god does let alone can do
but this all depends on what (if any) your understanding of what god is
can i also apologise for keep saying he
 

Robbo

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Silver Fox, I think you'll find that comment was figuratively presented and not literally.
I am in no position to second guess god here but there is a lot of figurative language is used and his real meaning is, he will forget the sin as far as you are responsible for it .. in other words, you won't be held to account for the sins if you repent .. I think you'll find that is what the true meaning of this passage is.

Biz, the fact that god is both omnipotent and omniscient i.e. is aware of all things past, present and future most certainly throws the cat among the pigeons, philosophically speaking anyway.

The problem with that line of thinking is that as soon as you invoke that school of thought you immediately negate the free will we are all supposed to be endowed with .. basically, it would open a line of thought suggesting we cannot be responsible for any bad we do if god already knows our future; his awareness is our decisions made for us ... that is the philosopher's point of view.

But, I'm pretty sure there is room in there for maintaining free will and the opportunity is embedded in the fact, or rather belief, that we start our lives by inhabiting just one of the infinite number of universes in existence.

My belief [on this point] would be, we all have free will coupled with an infinite number of universes we could potentially inhabit ..... but as to which one is wholly dependent upon the real time decisions we make.
If for arguments sake, we make a million decisions in our life, then we will have inhabited a million different universes and thus accountable to god within that universe we have ended up in.
This is where quantum mechanics threads itself in but I do not possess sufficient understanding of this to explain the details of how it all interweaves.
I know there is a mathematical mechanism that helps us understand and in some way predict many of these ideas but it's waaaaaay beyond anything I could understand.
I have a rough idea of how it would work but I ain't gonna try to articulate it because I don't wanna make myself look a pretentious dick-head by coming up with ideas that I cannot explain.
I realise this has departed from the initial question but these type threads will tend to do this because of their nature but to answer you, I think you're slightly missing the point .... I realise it is my time-line [universe] that he's enabling me to change but this doesn't preclude my assertion that god isn't omnipotent because he will ultimately still be unable to delete the knowledge of what happened which is a theoretical limitation on what he can or can't do....this is obviously absurd because he's an omnipotent being.
Either our mind's limitations disable a true understanding of the problem or god is not omnipotent ... I think it's the former for obvious reasons :)
I don't think there is any grand plan going on here, I think he is aware of past present and future all at the same time and therefore a plan would necessarily have a temporal connection in that a plan would be formulated and then it would be played out .. this is necessarily against a temporal backdrop.
I still can't get my head to accept god is limited in any way by time .... and if I'm right, it must mean he doesn't make plans.
As for you struggling in coming to terms with the sheer scale of our universe is universal ... nobody can do that .. when you have up to 200 billion stars in our galaxy and a similar number of galaxies and then those stars having planets orbiting around them, the numbers just blow your mind apart.
If you ask a statistician to make odds on whether there is life in our universe other than ourselves, he would take no bets, it's as certain as anything you'll find that there is life elsewhere ... but as to why we haven't come into contact with any ?..
Hmmmm ..... any ideas? :)
 

Robbo

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Come and join us Missy, all it takes is a few dozen mdma tabs and copious amounts of LSD.
I see another world, a world with no hunger, no violence and no Arsenal ..... I'm hooked on being out there.
 

WihGlah

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God already decided when he created the Universe what the end outcome would be. Everything you've ever done was caused by Him when he put His "plan" into action.

You do not have free will.

If you bash someone over the head - it is because God decided that you should. He doesn't want to alter the timeline, because that would **** up His plan. Your prayer would fail.

If anyone ever did travel back in time - God would vanish in a puff of Logic.

BTW - when it comes to God - I'm with Riddick.
 

Dr Fingers

They don't tell me nothin
Feb 1, 2009
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God already decided when he created the Universe what the end outcome would be. Everything you've ever done was caused by Him when he put His "plan" into action.
You do not have free will.
If you bash someone over the head - it is because God decided that you should. He doesn't want to alter the timeline, because that would **** up His plan. Your prayer would fail.
If anyone ever did travel back in time - God would vanish in a puff of Logic.
Sounds more like the Matrix!
 

Robbo

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God already decided when he created the Universe what the end outcome would be. Everything you've ever done was caused by Him when he put His "plan" into action.

You do not have free will.

If you bash someone over the head - it is because God decided that you should. He doesn't want to alter the timeline, because that would **** up His plan. Your prayer would fail.

If anyone ever did travel back in time - God would vanish in a puff of Logic.

BTW - when it comes to God - I'm with Riddick.

.....erm, I read your post several times just to try and work out if your tongue was planted firmly in your cheek or you were being serious ... I'll answer your post as if it was serious but I'm gonna be somewhat troubled as I write it out because I could well be entering into a discussion with a maniac ....and so, I'm kinda hoping you're just having fun.

At the very least, it'll give you a back-door to run through after I've responded to your post. On a philosophical level, the notion of a predetermined life for all of us is an absolute no-no.
There are several reasons why this is so but at the very least, these are the first two things to come into my mind.

There would be no point for God in creating human kind just for us to live out our lives like a preprogrammed robot ... it just makes no sense to think the human race doesn't have free will.
In fact, in all religions I know of, the notion of accountability based upon what we do in our lives is a fundamental component; if god had programmed us then nobody could be held accountable for all the bad things we do because he programmed us to do it.
Free will allows us to be held accountable, without this accountability, there'd be no point in any religion, in fact, there'd be no point in anything really if we are merely puppets on strings.
In your interpretation of things, god is responsible for all the evil in the world which is a concept I can't allow myself to believe.
In our world, evil is the product of an individual deciding [sane people] to do something evil ....
but, these are religious based answers and I'm well aware an agnostic cannot adopt this position because agnostics do not believe in religions; they believe in a creator but not much else.

Even if we take religion out of it, commonsense should tell us the futility of creating a conscious being merely to carry out a preprogrammed set of actions .... it just makes no sense.
I cannot prove this in any meaningful way but we come up against this problem quite a lot when discussing such matters and so I'm not particularly bothered by my lack of proof.

The following extract from your post unfortunately contradicts itself and so can't be considered meaningful in any way, here is the passage :-

'If you bash someone over the head - it is because God decided that you should. He doesn't want to alter the time-line, because that would **** up His plan. Your prayer would fail.'


I'm afraid that if you maintain a god driven universe in terms of his plan and all we do is act out his program, then what's the point of me being allowed to ask him the question to rewind time?
After all, if he programmed each and every action we make, he's hardly gonna allow/program me to pose a question that he cannot allow because in your words, 'it would f##k up his master-plan' ... free will allowed me to ask such a question, this is proof enough that we aren't robots.
When you suggest my prayer would fail, you have just allowed me to exercise my free will in being able to frame that question because it would never/could never be asked if we didn't have free will.

As for god disappearing in a puff of logic is an insane idea; there's no evidence or reasoned thought process that can attempt to explain your disappearing god.
The process you refer to is what's called a paradox and these paradoxes are merely the result of the human mind not being able to use language to accurately describe the world around us.
Words [and numbers] are what we use to represent and understand our world, these words do not have an absolute and comprehensive connection with reality; this explains why we get these paradoxes ... Epimenides paradox is probably the most well known and goes something like :-

All Cretans are liars
I am a Cretan

This a very simple example of a paradox and signifies one of the boundaries of our intellect because it's extremely difficult to comprehend the contradiction this paradox invokes.
 

Bambulus

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Ah, if only the Free Will/Determinism debate could be swept aside so easily. Unfortunately, the more we develop our understanding of philosophy, morals and ethics, and the more understanding we gain of the brain and it's functioning, the more complex the debate comes. In fact, the debate usually falls between morality and science - William James didn't want to deny the existence of free will on moral grounds, but could never justify this belief with his own scientific understanding. Many physicists, neuroscientists and psychologists are of the belief that free will, as we experience it, is a total illusion. We are nothing but slaves to our subconscious mind.

The argument becomes even worse when some homunculus, omnipotent deity comes into play.
 

Robbo

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Ah, if only the Free Will/Determinism debate could be swept aside so easily. Unfortunately, the more we develop our understanding of philosophy, morals and ethics, and the more understanding we gain of the brain and it's functioning, the more complex the debate comes. In fact, the debate usually falls between morality and science - William James didn't want to deny the existence of free will on moral grounds, but could never justify this belief with his own scientific understanding. Many physicists, neuroscientists and psychologists are of the belief that free will, as we experience it, is a total illusion. We are nothing but slaves to our subconscious mind.

The argument becomes even worse when some homunculus, omnipotent deity comes into play.
I wholeheartedly agree that the free will/ determinism argument isn't so easily reconciled but James's preference for free will to be justified on moral [religious] grounds isn't undermined merely because he wasn't able to confirm free will or determinism with science.
The fact that he couldn't achieve this scientific confirmation is not the same as proof free will isn't at play here.

As to your last point, that of us being held hostage to our subconscious mind is a tricky one because the implication is predicated on the subconscious mind not being under our control.
After all, if we are to impose control on anything, we presumably have to be conscious to do so ... but the implications of this are that all decisions are an emergent phenomenon of the subconscious mind merely mediated [or overseen] by our conscious mind.
It would be this process that gives weight to people describing our belief in our own free will as illusory.
This does sound reasonable but there are many reasonable sounding aspects of humankind that can more accurately be described as unlikely, and this happens because we do not fully understand all the contributing factors or processes.

I don't think we are held hostage by our subconscious mind but I do believe the subconscious mind has some form of input to the process of decision making and human experience.

There has been a lot of research done on the subconscious and its apparent effects on human decision making with no absolutes coming out of that research but what can be said is, there's an extremely subtle neuronal dance between our conscious mind and subconscious mind when decisions are thought about and subsequently made.

The fact we cannot directly attribute the degree of influence the subconscious has on any particular decision or action allows the back door to be opened and proposed probabilities
that our conscious mind's belief we are in control as illusory .... One of the main reasons I think the conscious mind is the hierarchical superior to the subconscious mind is because the sub-conscious mind is affected by so many irrational factors.
Factors such as emotional disturbances, negative bad experience associations etc ... With the sheer amount of decisions we have to make in any one day, we just could not survive if the subconscious mind were in control.
I think whenever I come up against problems such as this, I try to let commonsense have its wicked way with me; just because we cannot nail down a particular process doesn't mean we have a green light to propose what seem to me to be 'less likely' ideas such as 'free will' being an illusion of our conscious mind.
 

Bambulus

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I wholeheartedly agree that the free will/ determinism argument isn't so easily reconciled but James's preference for free will to be justified on moral [religious] grounds isn't undermined merely because he wasn't able to confirm free will or determinism with science.
The fact that he couldn't achieve this scientific confirmation is not the same as proof free will isn't at play here.
No, of course not. But William James happened to have lived long before any notion of neuroscientific understanding of the brain - at least before any credible understanding, at least. His hesitance to embrace free will scientifically is simply a precursor to modern understanding. He didn't embrace it because he didn't have the ability to understand it scientifically, we now do - with various studies being performed.

One such study indicates that conscious decisions are precluded by subconscious brain function - our brain decides our actions half a second before we actually (and consciously) perform the action. I know this isn't likely to be the case in many real life situations, especially where decisions have to be made in less than half a second, but usually in these cases we have innate reflexes and reactions - some of which don't go near the brain at all. We have no free will over these whatsoever.

As to your last point, that of us being held hostage to our subconscious mind is a tricky one because the implication is predicated on the subconscious mind not being under our control.
Very much so - which I believe it is, or at least partly. I've learned that consciousness is an evolved phenomena which came about with our increasing social/group sizes, giving us a competitive edge. There are animals/beings who don't act consciously, or only have semi-consciousness (when compared to our own consciousness). Do they have free will without consciousness?

The thing with consciousness is that people assume their conscious selves to be completely them. They are the conscious entity and only the conscious entity, subconscious isn't something that is inherently part of their being but something that is owned as a property, much like the body. This problem is mostly brought about by Descartes' mind/body problem - he separated the two, one as a spiritual, infallible entity (the mind), and the other being mechanical and fallible (the body).

However, this is untrue. I'm in Daniel Dennett's camp. Our conscious self is simply an add-on to our original brain functions. Being aware of ourselves (and by extension, the awareness of others' awareness of self) is something that provides an evolutionary benefit within large social groups. The mind functions almost solely subconsciously, only making some 'data'/processes available to conscious awareness.

After all, if we are to impose control on anything, we presumably have to be conscious to do so ... but the implications of this are that all decisions are an emergent phenomenon of the subconscious mind merely mediated [or overseen] by our conscious mind.
Yes, very much so.

It would be this process that gives weight to people describing our belief in our own free will as illusory.
This does sound reasonable but there are many reasonable sounding aspects of humankind that can more accurately be described as unlikely, and this happens because we do not fully understand all the contributing factors or processes.

I don't think we are held hostage by our subconscious mind but I do believe the subconscious mind has some form of input to the process of decision making and human experience.
Held hostage perhaps isn't the correct description, but it is certainly responsible for almost all of our behavior. I'll take a section of one of my essays to describe Dennett's multiple drafts model of the brain:

The brain is presented as a federation of independently operating specialist modules with no dominant centre or master homunculus, with only very basic higher-order neurons providing minimal integration. Consciousness does not exist at any finishing line or organisational section of the brain, but instead information is in a continual process of editing and re-editing without ever being finalised (Dietrich, 2007). The metaphor used to describe this concept is that of several revisions of a draft of a text circulating the internet that never reaches a final form as it would in the print media. Only when one of these drafts is probed, either by asking yourself a question or by some external event demanding your immediate attention, does this information enter the conscious – not used in the sense that consciousness is used in Cartesian theory, but simply used to describe how the information becomes available for other processes in the brain, such as movement or speech.

So when you say that the subconscious mind has some input into conscious decisions, Dennett's view (and my own) is that it is the other way around. Consciousness is the one who sometimes actively inputs into subconscious processing, as the brain (and therefore the mind) functions seemingly without the need for consciousness.

There has been a lot of research done on the subconscious and its apparent effects on human decision making with no absolutes coming out of that research but what can be said is, there's an extremely subtle neuronal dance between our conscious mind and subconscious mind when decisions are thought about and subsequently made.
I'll dispute this, purely on a semantic level. There is no neural dance between our conscious and sub-conscious, since the two are the same within the brain. There is no section of the brain where consciousness can be seen to exist, no 'finishing line' has ever been found. The only thing that differs in terms of neural patterns in decision making is whether or not we are aware of it. As stated before, our brains make a decision half a second before we are consciously aware of it.

The fact we cannot directly attribute the degree of influence the subconscious has on any particular decision or action allows the back door to be opened and proposed probabilities that our conscious mind's belief we are in control as illusory .... One of the main reasons I think the conscious mind is the hierarchical superior to the subconscious mind is because the sub-conscious mind is affected by so many irrational factors.
Factors such as emotional disturbances, negative bad experience associations etc ... With the sheer amount of decisions we have to make in any one day, we just could not survive if the subconscious mind were in control.
This is where you are very wrong.
I don't prescribe to the Freudian notion of the subconscious being, ie: the one which stores all of our repressed negative experiences. I do love Freudian theory, but only because it is massively entertaining to apply it to real life. Subconscious simply refers to any brain processes that we are not consciously aware of happening, which is almost all of them, coincidentally. Almost all of our bodily regulations are performed subconsciously, almost all of our sensory processing, language, so on and so forth. Almost every process in the brain happens subconsciously.

The subconscious mind is in control, the fact you have awareness of some of it simply gives you the believe it is your consciousness that is in control, when in fact your conscious awareness is a result itself of subconscious processing.
:)


I think whenever I come up against problems such as this, I try to let commonsense have its wicked way with me; just because we cannot nail down a particular process doesn't mean we have a green light to propose what seem to me to be 'less likely' ideas such as 'free will' being an illusion of our conscious mind.
What defines an idea as 'less likely' - judged by the current paradigm or by some other measurement? You have to remember that there was once a time when it was considered IMPOSSIBLE for the earth to be revolving around the sun (by those who were religious, coincidentally enough), but the questioning of the original commonsense knowledge allowed the paradigm to shift. Imagine if somebody said now that the sun revolves around the Earth...

It's not at all impossible for the conscious mind to be controlled by the subconscious, and for each of us to be in less control over our own mind than we thought - which is exactly why it's a hot topic and why so much research goes into this debate.
:)

I've written this over a long time, so some of it may not make as much sense as it does from my point of view. I'll correct/adjust accordingly, but for now it's being posted :)
 
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