Eclipse Geo
- Thread starter andyace
- Start date
replace all you can and bolt tip orings and give every thing a fresh lube. But i have read there not the best on air. have you got the GS kit ?
put fresh batteries in, use a decent size paint(to bore match), make sure the bolt is cleaned and lubed properly, whats the dwell set at? I get around 4/5 and a hopper off of a 3k fill using a 1.1 so...
Has gst kit fitted. All cleaned n lubed. 1.1bottle not really an option. Its ellies gun n she wont go up to that size.
Thanks
Where's your VVC? if its all the way out screw it in about half way it may kick a tiny bit more but you should find you should get more shots.
Pinched from the nation,
There are things that you can try to do to maximise the efficiency: -
Having perfect o-ring fit; minimum dwell; perfect paint to barrel fit (the barrel itself can have an effect in terms of design - length, amount of porting, stepped or unstepped, etc.); eliminating all other sources of air wastage (find and fix any little leaks you have); getting a full fill; making sure that the back check ball in the solenoid is the correct size, smooth and clean; making sure that the can pin hole isn't too large; using light paint (which will accelerate up to speed with less air expended); making sure that your tank is filled slowly to get a cool fill rather than a hot fill, so that you don't lose pressure as the tank cools.
Fact is that as stated, in general, the average spool valve marker isn't going to be as efficient as the average poppet valve marker, and the most efficient spool valve marker isn't going to give you as high a shot count as the most efficient poppet marker. Basically, you can only push the efficiency so far.
I personally don't feel a great difference in kick between having the marker tuned with the VVC screw all the way, or all the way out, so I'd just skip straight to having the VVC screw all the way in. That has the effect of reducing the firing chamber volume a bit (if all the air were to be released with each cycle, then you would be releasing less air per shot), and may also lead to a slightly higher operating pressure. Higher pressure tends to accelerate a ball more efficiently, so after tuning, you may find that you don't actually need to release as much air per shot with a higher pressure.
Which brings us to the next thing - if you've already screwed the VVC in, and reduced the firing chamber volume as much as possible, but find that you are still releasing more air per shot than is necessary to accelerate the ball up to speed, where do you go from there?
The answer to that one is dwell tuning - keeping the bolt forward (and hence the "valve" open) for the shortest length of time possible to release enough air to accelerate the ball up to speed. Basically, we use the electronic dwell setting to control how much air is released with each shot.
If you run a search in the forum, I believe that Nicky T posted a thread on dwell tuning if you want more details, but basically, you set your dwell to the stock setting (14.5ms for a Geo with the ST kit installed), set your VVC where you want it, and then chrono to speed via your HPR as normal.
Now, lower your dwell 1ms, and check your velocity again - don't touch the HPR. If your velocity has stayed the same, you were actually releasing more air than required at that pressure to get the ball up to speed. In a nutshell, the dwell was longer than it needed to be, and the bolt was staying forwards and flowing air for longer than necessary, and just wasting air.
If on the other hand, the velocity has dropped, go back up 0.5ms and try again. If the velocity is back to what it was, and you can rapid fire without drop off, then you have finished dwell tuning. If the velocity is still lower, or you have drop off, go back to the setting you started at.
If on the other hand your velocity is still how you set it, drop the dwell another 1ms, and check the velocity again. Repeat until your velocity drops, then go back up 0.5 or 1ms, as required to get the velocity back up, and eliminate drop off.
So, I would turn in the VVC, tune the dwell, and see if you can get any mileage from the other things I listed.
The other thing I would suggest if you just can't get the numbers you need is to consider switching from the 45/4500 to perhaps a 56/4500 - smaller than 68/4500, not a whole lot larger than 45/4500, but with a considerable increase in capacity.
__________________
Pinched from the nation,
There are things that you can try to do to maximise the efficiency: -
Having perfect o-ring fit; minimum dwell; perfect paint to barrel fit (the barrel itself can have an effect in terms of design - length, amount of porting, stepped or unstepped, etc.); eliminating all other sources of air wastage (find and fix any little leaks you have); getting a full fill; making sure that the back check ball in the solenoid is the correct size, smooth and clean; making sure that the can pin hole isn't too large; using light paint (which will accelerate up to speed with less air expended); making sure that your tank is filled slowly to get a cool fill rather than a hot fill, so that you don't lose pressure as the tank cools.
Fact is that as stated, in general, the average spool valve marker isn't going to be as efficient as the average poppet valve marker, and the most efficient spool valve marker isn't going to give you as high a shot count as the most efficient poppet marker. Basically, you can only push the efficiency so far.
I personally don't feel a great difference in kick between having the marker tuned with the VVC screw all the way, or all the way out, so I'd just skip straight to having the VVC screw all the way in. That has the effect of reducing the firing chamber volume a bit (if all the air were to be released with each cycle, then you would be releasing less air per shot), and may also lead to a slightly higher operating pressure. Higher pressure tends to accelerate a ball more efficiently, so after tuning, you may find that you don't actually need to release as much air per shot with a higher pressure.
Which brings us to the next thing - if you've already screwed the VVC in, and reduced the firing chamber volume as much as possible, but find that you are still releasing more air per shot than is necessary to accelerate the ball up to speed, where do you go from there?
The answer to that one is dwell tuning - keeping the bolt forward (and hence the "valve" open) for the shortest length of time possible to release enough air to accelerate the ball up to speed. Basically, we use the electronic dwell setting to control how much air is released with each shot.
If you run a search in the forum, I believe that Nicky T posted a thread on dwell tuning if you want more details, but basically, you set your dwell to the stock setting (14.5ms for a Geo with the ST kit installed), set your VVC where you want it, and then chrono to speed via your HPR as normal.
Now, lower your dwell 1ms, and check your velocity again - don't touch the HPR. If your velocity has stayed the same, you were actually releasing more air than required at that pressure to get the ball up to speed. In a nutshell, the dwell was longer than it needed to be, and the bolt was staying forwards and flowing air for longer than necessary, and just wasting air.
If on the other hand, the velocity has dropped, go back up 0.5ms and try again. If the velocity is back to what it was, and you can rapid fire without drop off, then you have finished dwell tuning. If the velocity is still lower, or you have drop off, go back to the setting you started at.
If on the other hand your velocity is still how you set it, drop the dwell another 1ms, and check the velocity again. Repeat until your velocity drops, then go back up 0.5 or 1ms, as required to get the velocity back up, and eliminate drop off.
So, I would turn in the VVC, tune the dwell, and see if you can get any mileage from the other things I listed.
The other thing I would suggest if you just can't get the numbers you need is to consider switching from the 45/4500 to perhaps a 56/4500 - smaller than 68/4500, not a whole lot larger than 45/4500, but with a considerable increase in capacity.
__________________
Cheers guys that has given me something to think about.beat me to itthat was what i was looking for
andy with the geo im shooting this weekend i only got 4 and a hopper and totally emtpy on 3k fill on my 1.1 seems they are horrendous on air unless u tune the dwell to suit its madness
The dwell is best adjusted to suit the state of the o-rings. If possible always try to change all o-rings together on the bolt, can and prop shaft as they wear together. The one o-ring you can change without changing the rest is the bumper o-ring on the bolt. When the o-rings are new the dwell should be high and as they wear and become more efficient/bedded in the dwell can be dropped.
Something else to bear in mind lol
Something else to bear in mind lol