The Great NPPL Reffing Debate

[Baca Loco]

Judging at the Maxs Masters

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
When the NPPL can fly in judging crews with all expenses paid, on a smaller team and trade base (currently) than the Millennium Series, obviously the money to solve this problem IS there !

The money may be, but it doesn't solve all the problems as Vegas recently demonstrated.
The NPPL has highlighted their intent to deliver first class, tough but fair, reffing as part of their appeal to players--and they have worked hard at it.
Yet Vegas was very poorly reffed and it had very little to do with the effort and determination of the refs on field. It had more to do with a lack of consistency in enforcement policy and, IMO, a lack of cogency in certain rules. This led to refs making some extraordinarily bizarre calls but that was fixable. Pre-event each field ultimate must be given the same procedures and guidelines for running their field for starters and early on the fields need to have the event ultimate checking for consistency.
The area that is a bigger issue is number of refs per field, how the refs were zoned and the field designs. The NPPL fields encourage aggressive play between the 30's but end up with one ref per side on the 50 or thereabouts. Lots of game altering calls were missed or made incorrectly simply because there weren't enough eyes in the right place at the right time to get it correct.
The end result is players left shaking their heads at some mondo bizarro 1-4-1's and then some mad dash playing on no calls and how do you call that either improved or the best reffing in the world?
The will exists in the NPPL to get it right but the formula needs some work.

My point, Nick, wasn't to detract from your point but to perhaps expand the conversation as the issue of reffing is probably most players number one concern.

 

[Magued]

Baco Loco

I cant figure you out?

You have been jumping on the Nppl reffing from Huntington to Vegas.
Why is that? if I remember correctly you where ( pretty much alone ) ranting about that the reffing in HB wasnt so good. Pretty much everybody else and especially the americans thought it was the best reffed event they ever went to.

As for vegas you now sound like it was a disaster regarding reffing. Well it wasnt. In fact it was the best reffed US event I have ever played.

All the fields had the same start system, the reffs gave 100% and misstakes was done. thats gonna happend. But that is far away from the ordinary dontgivea**** attitude that have been the standard in the NPPL before.

Does Nppl need more reffs on each field? sure that would be great, but where and exactly witch US event prior to HB and Vegas have you seen better reffing in the Usa?

World cup? Skyball? Vegas last year?

Magued

 

[Robbo]

I gotta say for the record, the judging as far as we (Nexus) were concerned was exemplary, we only had one problem in all the games we had and that wasn't down to incompetence or bias, merely wrong place, wrong time.
Nah, reffs at Huntingdon and Vegas were fackin brilliant !!!

 

[Baca Loco]

Baco Loco

Originally posted by Magued
I cant figure you out?

1--You have been jumping on the Nppl reffing from Huntington to Vegas.
Why is that? if I remember correctly you where ( pretty much alone ) ranting about that the reffing in HB wasnt so good. Pretty much everybody else and especially the americans thought it was the best reffed event they ever went to.

2--As for vegas you now sound like it was a disaster regarding reffing. Well it wasnt. In fact it was the best reffed US event I have ever played.

3--All the fields had the same start system, the reffs gave 100% and misstakes was done. thats gonna happend. But that is far away from the ordinary dontgivea**** attitude that have been the standard in the NPPL before.

4--Does Nppl need more reffs on each field? sure that would be great, but where and exactly witch US event prior to HB and Vegas have you seen better reffing in the Usa?

World cup? Skyball? Vegas last year?

Magued

Mag
I don't think it's an either or proposition. Has the NPPL made a conscious effort to get it right? Yes, they have. Has that resulted in a better overall job being done? HB, yes--Vegas, maybe.
Does that mean the problem is solved and the issue never needs to be mentioned again? I don't think so.

1--if you thought my comments on HB were ranting you've missed out on the real thing. Amid all the hallelujahs I simply pointed out some room for improvements.
2--would you feel the same way about Vegas if Joy Div had been appropriately penalized for physical contact during a game on the Zap field? Maybe not. Or loud, cross field cursing (in English) on the Raven field?
My point is simply this--you guys had no problems or issues and that is swell. Doesn't mean however that there weren't any. And before you start on how there will always be some bad or missed calls, I agree. But there are things that can be done to minimize those things so shouldn't they be? Yet, if no one bothers to make an issue of it and instead says it was all fab why would the NPPL or PP continue to try and get better?
It seems to me part of the Mil's present problems with reffing are due to resting on past laurels.
3--the old NPPL/PSP problems are of fairly recent vintage and relate far more to insufficient numbers and unfit refs than anything else. Back in the olden days when primarily the Pro teams did the reffing they often did an outstanding job with the exception of the tendency to show their buds a bit o' love now and again.
4--not even vaguely relevant but I've been to plenty of events reffed as well as Vegas. And it's not just about whether you (or Pete) were adversely affected one way or another. It's about all the players and teams. Perhaps I'm advocating an impossibly high standard but I don't think so.

And Pete--in Nexus' case a proper call could easily have been made if the ref had been in a better position. Two steps to the left was all it would'a taken. It's not like this is rocket science.

 

[Robbo]

Re: Baco Loco

Originally posted by Baca Loco
And Pete--in Nexus' case a proper call could easily have been made if the ref had been in a better position. Two steps to the left was all it would'a taken. It's not like this is rocket science.

Paul, true, but I wouldn't let one mistake or oversight taint my overall view of the judging even tho that one mistake cost us qualification to the finals.
Doesn't have to be rocket science for people to make mistakes mate, we had only one mistake out of the many decisions that were made in the games we played in.

 

[Magued]

Baco

"2--would you feel the same way about Vegas if Joy Div had been appropriately penalized for physical contact during a game on the Zap field? Maybe not. Or loud, cross field cursing (in English) on the Raven field?"

I saw you post something about this last week, Could you please fill me in on what that physical contact was, beacuse I really dont know what you are talking about.
And cursing on the raven field, who did that? as we only played 1 real fast game there I want to know what you saw.

Who told you I didnt have issues in Vegas?

In any case I still wanna know witch events in the state that you felt had better reffing than Vegas? And please we are talking major events here.

And part of the millennium series recent problems with reffing is that the teams dont give 100% when they are on the reffing duty.

Magued

 

[Robbo]

Robbo and Baca !

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
If you do not IMMIDIATELY get back to the subject - or move your irrelevant discussion about NPPL judging to another thread - I will have Buddha ban you both from the Forum until you learn proper decorum in here !

Nick

My banning finger hovers...trembling.. over the name of 'Brockdorff'...my decorum being maintained at all times

 

[Baca Loco]

Robbo and Baca !

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
If you do not IMMIDIATELY get back to the subject - or move your irrelevant discussion about NPPL judging to another thread - I will have Buddha ban you both from the Forum until you learn proper decorum in here !



Nick

What are you ranting about now, Brockdorff? There is just no satisfying some people.

 

[Baca Loco]

Baco

Originally posted by Magued
"2--would you feel the same way about Vegas if Joy Div had been appropriately penalized for physical contact during a game on the Zap field? Maybe not. Or loud, cross field cursing (in English) on the Raven field?"

A--I saw you post something about this last week, Could you please fill me in on what that physical contact was, beacuse I really dont know what you are talking about.
And cursing on the raven field, who did that? as we only played 1 real fast game there I want to know what you saw.

B--Who told you I didnt have issues in Vegas?

C--In any case I still wanna know witch events in the state that you felt had better reffing than Vegas? And please we are talking major events here.

D--And part of the millennium series recent problems with reffing is that the teams dont give 100% when they are on the reffing duty.

Magued

A--Zap field vs. one of the Brass Eagle/Viewloader teams, I think. A player after a bunkering run objected to the number of times he got hit and instead of leaving the field purposefully moved up field and shoved a player on the other team. A couple of refs stepped in and that was all there was to it. Not a huge deal, but still against the letter of the rules prohibiting physical contact.
Raven field it was staging side of field from player covering the Dorito wire shouting at refs, "On his f***ing hopper. Get him the f*** off the field" or words very close to that with a bit of Swedish tossed in as well.
My point wasn't to dog Joy Div. Just to point out that your view of the event might have been substantially altered by a couple of potential calls that, could have been, but weren't made.
B--nobody, but since you didn't voice any contrary opinion I assumed you were 100% satisfied. And when I offer some criticism it doesn't mean I don't see the good in the overall event.
C--in recent times probably none were better. I just don't think that is a satisfactory standard to go by.
D--I'll take your word for it. If the teams cared more and worked harder before why don't they now?

 

[shamu]

First, thanks for the positive comments from Robbo and Mag. We (the refs) worked our collective asses off in Vegas. Nice to see it was appreciated.

Second, I think Baca raises some good points. While I personally feel the reffing was among the best I've seen in the US (I may be biased ), that doesn't mean it can't be improved.

Anytime you bring a group of refs together from different areas, there's going to be variances in judgement. Consistency is one area that can be improved. A good example is the obvious hit rule - what one ref may consider a self-check area another ref may not. This could result in a player hit in the back (for example) being 1for1'd on one field but not another.

Teamwork and zoning can be improved too. This goes back to bringing together a group that hasn't worked together in the past.

There are some things that can be done to improve the situation. Pre-event training is one way to make sure everyone has the same understanding of rules. Field walking for the referees can help with zoning and better teamwork from the outset of the event. Hopefully we'll see this for Chicago.