Reffing in the Millenium series

[Magued]

I think we need to change the entire system about reffing and points.
If a team reff a event they will collect 300 points. Nomatter what they do they will collect 300 points.

Some teams cant reff to save there lifes, and they still will recive 300 points.

I saw reffing teams in Portugal making so many bad calls that it was scary. I saw the same **** in Germany with reffing teams that couldnt do the job.

I want to make a book of conduct for reffing team that will punish reffing teams that dont do a proper job.

If you for instance give a team a 1 for 1 and pull a players from the wrong team, you have fu**d up and should get point reduction from the reffing points. ( it happend in the semis in Portugal )

If you pull a players beacuse he is hot on the chrono during the game and refuse to show him the chrono, you should also be punished.

If you are very inactive and dont make a effort you should also be punished for it.

If you lie just to cover up your own mistakes you should also be punished.

One big issue that almost surface in every millenium event is the big difference in standard that ALOT of french teams that reff shows.

I dont know what it is but alot of teams from france have a very strange and arrogant approach whenever they reff. They also have a huge problem admitting whenever they f**k up.

I for one is sick of that mentallity and say NO MORE. Shape up and get in the program or your points will get reduced or even taken away. And they should not be able to reff again for a long time!

I know alot of people is having huge problems with this and I think its time to do something about it!

Furthermore I think we need to change the rule about re-games.
Its so stupid when a team that have payed 10 000 thousend of dollars to be there have to go home beacuse a reff pulled the wrong player. " sorry bad call" isnt good enought!

Why shouldnt we give them a new game? If it is beacuse of the schedual then we as the promoters just have to make damn sure that we have time over for this if it appears.

Take pride in your job as a reff or get the hell out and dont bother to show up!


Magued

Ps. None of this **** happend to my team.. so dont even go there

 

[mortenlj]

In theory a good idea - But....

Hi Magued,

Even though I agree with you on the fact that there is a problem with the current (and the old) marshalling system - I personally think that we need to get professional marshalls before it really gets any better.

With regards to your specific suggestion, who is going to decide on who gets what points ?

The organizer of the event - They are usually busy making the event run !
The players - They will never agree on a thing like this !
The Ultimate marshall - He has his hands full already and it might be a bit to much power for one man (no offense meant) !
The teams marshalling - I dont think they will be objective !

And none of the above will be able to check all marshalls on all fields of an event anyway.

Short of electing (and pay for) a "policeforce" to sit at the fields, checking on everything - I don't see how this can be done in real life !

On a sidenote the problem with the Marshalls are not just with French teams - I have seen poor marshalling by teams from all around the world (none mentioned - none forgotten) including scandinavia - I'll even admit to having made some "dodgy" calls myself over time.

The book of conduct for Marshalls is a must and this was actually one of the things i suggested to Jean-Manuel during the Maxs Masters - the series needs definitive guidelines for the Marshalls.

The new rules for this season with the 300 points - the requirement for the marshalls to play two Millennium events before the team gets the 300 points and the fact that Teams will be selected by ranking, and planned at the start of the season should help - but there is a long way to go !

The language barrier might be considered our biggest problem but I firmly believe that our biggest concern should be with the basic rules.- I'm stunned by the fact that most players (and marshalls) have such a limited knowledge of the rules - look at the discussion about triggerguards elsewhere on this board and thats just the tip of the iceberg - loader stickers, Crono rules, clothing, full length pants, goggles, gamestart and paintcheck are just some of the areas that seems to cause players (and marshalls) problems.

I could not help myself laughing a bit when I read a post on this board about a player complaining that the marshall called him clean while he had a hit in his goggles, he had to point it out to the marshall before being eliminated - well lucky him and his team - according to the rules (10.02 and 10.03) he was supposed to raise his arms and leave the field imidiately - so unless the marshall standing next to him called him neutral, in the same instance as he was hit, we are actually talking about a 1 for 1 offence for "playing on"(do you know communicating with a marshall after being hit in an obvious place constitutes "playing on" - rule 12.01 ?).
OK it was poor marshalling (no doubt about it) - but the player was also at fault (and hopefully have learnt something if he reads this - sorry to "hang you out" buddy) !

The rules are not perfect but it is all we have (and they will improve over time) - The Marshalls are not perfect (at least not all of them) but we need them to play the game - The Millennium series is not perfect but it is one of the best tournament series in the world (if not the best) !

See ya

Morten
P.S. I'm totally against putting rematches in the rulebook - If we open this door we will be drowning in demands for rematches from the teams due to anything from loud music over spectators shouting to surgical implanted GPS/EMP equipment - God help the organizers and Ultimate if this gets in the rulebook !

 

[TheRo0sTer]

This kinda falls back on the RULE BOOK thread a while back. What it all boils down to besides REF's with NO integrity is that we all are HUMAN. Then there is the fact that we interpret things differently. So even if you hire a Professional Marshalling squad you can still have problems. What if they never played Paintball at the Tournament Level? What if there were different companies being hired? Then you would have interpretation errors. So you know what we are going to have the same problem all over again. Good example is the Major Leagues in the US. The Umpires are all sent to the same school and work for the same owner. But since they are HUMAN they have there own way of seeing things. And you are back to the HUMAN factor.

 

[mortenlj]

Pro marshalls

There will alays be the chance of a human error - we just have to live with that.

The only way I see to implement PRO marshalls is to have one "company/organization" provide the Marshalls for all the events.

This organization will have to be responsible for the quality of the marshalls supplied, and paid accordingly.

I don't agree that you have to play paintball at tournament level to be a good marshall - you need an understandig of the game and common sense (Oh yeah and some major BALLS to take the nescesarry decissions).

Biggest problem with PRO marshalls is that the only people ending up with the bill for this is you guys the players and Paintball tourneys are getting way to expensive already.

Rough estimate for the cost of 50 marshalls (needed for 6 fields)
will run into 57.000 € pr. event - Since the organizers already has to pay for hotel and food during the day we can deduct 300 € pr. marshall from the above giving us a cost of 42.000 € pr. event !
Lets say the average tournament has 80 teams thats an extra 525 € on top of the inscription fee pr. team.

4 days of 10 hours at 15 € pr. hour = 600 € (remember theese guys wil have to take time of from work etc.)
Hotelexpenses 4 nights at 35€ = 140 €
Flights = 200 €
Food and misc. 200 €
Total pr. pro Marhall = 1140 €

So until we find a sponsor for this project its not really a likely scenario !

I like Nick's idea about the Marshall certification - there is a few problems with this, like what happens if 10 out the 48 marshall fail ???
Where will we get the resources to marshall the tournament then ??
A better way of doing this would be to have certification classes held in France, UK,Germany, Sweden and the US in the beginning of the season - if you want to marshall a millennium event you need to go to one of theese classes before the event !
There is of course still some cost issues and it will need some work but it could work out.

See ya

Morten

 

[kris]

Can we not adopt how football referee's are scored?
A guy goes and watches the game and marks the skill of the referee. Which increases his ranking
By having a higher ranking you marshall higher teams.
So say the ultimate goes round and views one match for each squad of marshalls and marks them. say out of 10
To make teams want the higher ranking maybe a pay bonus would be in order?? Money talks
This would not take too much time of the ultimates hand and make the marshalls want to do better
By the way the ultimate wouldn't tell the team when he was going to watch, making the team behave more consistantly.

so:
If you improve your ranking you marshall the higher divisions and thus get paid more.
A beginner team would start of at the bottom and work there way up to a "pro standard" "david elllery" still has to referee lower divisions and so should the top marshalls of paintball
It's not perfect but if its good enough for football surely it can be adopted to paintball

or as the infamous Ledz said at campaign
"if no-one cheated we wouldn't need marshall's"
so capital punishment to wipers
peace
kris

 

[TheRo0sTer]

Originally posted by kris
If you improve your ranking you marshall the higher divisions and thus get paid more.
A beginner team would start of at the bottom and work there way up to a "pro standard" "david elllery" still has to referee lower divisions and so should the top marshalls of paintball
It's not perfect but if its good enough for football surely it can be adopted to paintball

or as the infamous Ledz said at campaign
"if no-one cheated we wouldn't need marshall's"
so capital punishment to wipers
peace
kris

Kris that is a kewl idea but why should the Novice and AM divisions have to suffer CRAP marshalls cause they can't make the grade? Just asking.

 

[kris]

Its not crap marshalls, its just marshall's that haven't been proven yet!
When you play sunday league you still respect the referee but realise he hasn't got the total skill levels of the premier division guys. Mostly because they are the newest out of the factory and therefore have not proved themselves to the board yet.
These guys are full of determination to get to the top but have not yet got the experience for an FA cup final.
Also
at novice level it is much easier to marshall, people tend to walk as soon as they feel a hit and don't argue back. (as much)
You could argue that the pro teams should have the best marshall's because they ARE THE BEST TEAMS
soz got to go girlfriends here
kris

 

[Stefu]

Judges

Originally posted by Nick Iuel-Brockdorff
I understand Magueds frustration... I think we all do !

Morten is absolutely right.... the BIG problem we have, is that most players don't know the rules !!

...How on earth can you perfrom satisfactory as a judge, if you don't know the rules ?

I believe 99,9 % of all judges to be honest and fair... but just unable to do the job well, for lack of knowledge and experience.

They don't know the rules because they don't give a sh*t about reffing. They are there only for the points. If you really wanted to do a good job, reading the rules isn't such a big deal. I've seen this on every series I've ever played.

I also think that the refs have to do too many games / day, it's easy to lose focus when tired, hot and doing monotonous game-after-game-after-game routine. I'd like to see half day sessions for refs but that would double the number of reffing teams.


Later,

Stefan / Cyclone

 

[Russell Smith]

Ok, try not to all come down on me at once but-

I have just a little experience at marshaling but surely the best thing to do is lead from the top.

If you had a good ultimate (And I am not saying these events have or have not) who can communicate the way he wants the event to run to his field ultimate's who in turn lead by example and are not just the team captain.

As for pro marshals its a fantastic idea but i think it is financialy unworkable at the present level of sponsorship,But maybe we could have independent tournament field ultimate's who at the end of the event can say just how good his marshals were and there total points for marshaling can be awarded acording to how good they performed.

 

[mortenlj]

HMMM

Nick Buddy,

If the marshalls cant pass the certification (test) - whats the point of having them marshall the event (they are not up to the standard) ??

I think there is a lot of problems with all the solutions suggested so far - we just have to keep working on a better solution !

Russell - you are right, PRO field ultimates would be a great start (sort of like the "police" i mentioned earlier) - but it will still be a matter of finances (and theese guys wont come cheap) and finding somebody willing to do this job (and take the beating that comes with it).

See ya

Morten