JoyMasters -> WipeMasters?

[Dragoni]

What the F*** happened in there?
Were ref's really so blind that they didn't see anyone wiping?
Or did teams "contribute" their extra players as a refs for that event?

Anyway, if guy wipes off four times in single game, someone, besides spectators, should see that. And what's with LaSoya taking three guys down after hit?

Damn, if this is where's big tournament scene is heading at, I have no interest on anything bigger than FCL.

Sure I'll understand that pro tournaments are cruel events, but this is getting too far, and friggin organizers should find some independent PRO class refs for a PRO class tournament.

we here, in the honest country, are shocked.
http://www.splatweb.net/splatboard/Forum1/HTML/000525.html

 

[manike]

Very Strange...

I wonder how it can be that I saw so few attempts at blatant cheating. And yet people in the crowd thought they did?

Let me explain, I spent most of the three days of the Joy Masters on the fields walking around and taking pictures. I try to make a huge effort when I am, to not be in the line of sight or way of players. I wear dark lenses so players can't see my eyes or where I am looking so I give less away, I often turn my head but keep my eyes on what I want to take picture of to ensure not giving that player away. I also tend to do this when I think a player may be attempting to cheat... I see things that often judges don't and the crowd don't as I am not infront of the players where they can see me (as per judges) but I am right up close to the action. I think I have developed a good knack of detecting guilty people.

Why did I see so little of the cheating you describe? Can it be that myself barely feet away from the players in question had a worse picture of what actually happened than a spectator at least 3-4 metre and some times 40 metres away? Obviously! (note the sarcasm).

Absolute rubbish. So many times I was watching a player and they would get hit and it would bounce. The player quite rightly moves in tighter or turns around in his barricade to present less of a target and the crowd says 'look' he's wiping. Absolute rubbish.

I saw some paint hit players and spray but not leave a mark. From my taking pictures I have seen this happen a huge amount of times lately. That player gets accused of wiping but in effect the ball didn't leave a mark on him! But the crowd saw it spray... The judge checks and there is no paint...

One issue that occured at Joy is that a player got tagged in the head, the crowd saw it spray but the marhsall had real trouble finding the hit as it was watery white paint and was inside the top edge of a goggle. For all those in the crowd, I saw the hit and it was very hard to see even when looking down with my angle of view At the heat of the action no judge is going to catch that. That's part of paintball unfortunately.

As for all the blatant wiping? My god I wish I knew how they did it. I got shot to pieces this weekend and even when trying to wipe the marks with a beer towel I was unable to remove the paint stains beyond what a judge would have found and called out! To do it as subtly as many in the crowd like to say it happens is just plain crap. It's just not that easy to wipe these tourny grade paints from clothing as many suggest. From barrels and hoppers is another point...

But I from just a few feet saw very little of this? How did the crowd see so much? I think in many cases it is their imagination or a combination of events I have described above.

Playing on is a bigger issue and needs to be enforced. Blatant playing on I did see... but not wiping. I saw one blatant wipe and so did the judge... that player was followed of the field by his team mates.

WDP is working on a seperate series of judges which looks to be very promising.

In general I thought the marshalling to be extremely good this weekend. That one incident with Lasoya is not what the crowd thought. I was right on top if it as it happened and again the crowd made up their mind from 10 metres back behind the net rather than 2 metres away as were the judges. And as I said above I saw the 'hit' it was not obvious and their were judges right on top of him as he made his move. There is nothing that any other marshalls could have done better.

I do think GZ'z use of radio's to communicate between all field judges was excellent and got eliminated players removed from the field much more quickly.

But then that's just my opinions as from a few feet away as compared to 10 metres and behind the netting where obviously the crowd can see more...

The crowd are often so biased that their perception makes them see things and interpret things in a completely different way.

manike

 

[ascutt]

Photos?

Manike

Any chance of mailing me the Rushers photos to andy@scutt.net?

Cheers


Scutty

 

[KillerOnion]

Hrm. Quite an interesting observation of the glancing hits and near hits that spray but don't leave an eliminating mark. That would probably be the case in a few instances, but for the most part I just don't buy that.

Paint used by the majority players, notably Hellfire and Imperial, have super dense fills and brittle enough shells to where their impacts are big explosions that rarely leave inadequate marks. Sprays from them are rarely if ever direct hits, which is what I believe is required by the rules of various other leagues (WPF for one) for elimination. Near hits off bunkers and such that are two inches away or less look like direct hits but aren't. Even still, the spray dropped from impacts isn't a mist but rather globs that can quickly stack up to be an eliminating mark. Dispersed hits like streaks on a barrel from a straight on shot, Nike symbol-like swooshes on top of visors from a ball that strikes and cuts in half, hits on the side of a knee that when extended splits in half into two non-quarter sized marks, and other stuff like that should be well known to all tournament referees and called as eliminations when they occur.

Also the spectators a little bit away may be standing on higher ground (I wasn't there for Joy Masters so I don't know if in fact they were, but at other events that can be the case) and might have a slight advantage by looking from a high angle. That doesn't make your closer vantage point not superior for the majority of situations, but every now and then they might catch something from that angle that you may not.

Another point about means of wiping, it has been said to me that at certain times there are known to be towels (paper and/or cloth) taken on the field by players. By players! What intention has ANYONE carrying on a cloth or any similar item with any other purpose but to wipe? I've never personally seen this myself but I've heard it too many times for there not be some ghost of truth behind it. And an obvious notion: does any ref other than myself EVER check the players' hands and gloves coming off the field??? This is as simple as and should be done at the same time as chronoing. I never have seen it anywhere else other than at my home field do it. God only knows how many wipers of all divisions would be busted that way.

 

[Mark Toye-Nexus]

Mr Onion

Get a life buddy - and get real - 'checking gloves as players come off the field' to 'bust them' hahahahahahahahaha!!

Yeah I've got 16 pairs of gloves to play with all weekend too!!!

Regards

Mark

 

[Dragoni]

Good that we have an opinion from the field.

So, less wiping you saw on the field, the better. If you would of seen one wipe per game, then I would be really worried.

True, it happened, most likely more than you saw (or were you on each field and on both end's of them at once?), and so did playing on (which I forgot to mention in thread).
So, I'm blaming the judges, or the organizers. Wiping is too (IMO) often seen in Pro level tournaments, and something should be done.
Okay, if they would get 1-for-1 and -25 points after playing on/wiping, they might actually think if it is worth it, before those primitive instincts hit in.

It seems that more than once judges were reluctant to take action when playing on happened (yes it was the bigger problem). Was it because (insert team name here) is a legend?
For god's sake, buy a spine kids.

And I am talking for my own and about 50 others (on and off field) behalf.

btw, no wonder if you got lots of hits when taking pictures at the field. Did anyone knew you?

Anyway, I dont think that you can deny wiping/playing on being a major issue on tournaments. Sure it happens coz pro's (and yes, am's too) play cruel.
Still, wiping is one thing which should not happen, and EVERY player should know better than to wipe off a hit.
Playing on then, well it's easier to accept, but still a ****ty thing to do.
Besides if LaSoya dropped three guys after taking a hit, shouldnt he get more than 1-4-1? (no, I havent got JM's rules at hand)

Good that some major company in the industry has good ref training program, just wish that there would be more such.

 

[manike]

The only time I really got shot by a team I knew was by the Rushers and in that case the hellfire bounced! (???)

I was waiting for Mr Toye to do the mugging thing and so had to expect to be vaguely in the line of fire from his cross field team mates.

Obviously I wasn't on all fields and at both ends at the same time. But what I was, is witness to many events that the crowd saw as playing on/wiping but which were most definitely not.

That's why I challenged your observations. Just because 50 of you thought you saw something from 30yards does not mean you saw it better than the guy at 2 yards. I'd guess judging from the crowds reactions on many occassions that they definitely did not.

I never saw judges being reluctant. They are on the scene and make their call. It's never an easy one. Maybe Lasoya should have gotten a 1-4-1 but the judges were on top of him, he made his moves and the hit was not seen until the very end (almost) of the game. Who is to say he took three players while being marked? Who is to say it didn't happen earlier... or at the very last exchange he had... The marshalls were on him and took him out as soon as they saw it, that's how it is. The fact that the crowd may have seen some spray earlier but the judges missed it is a part of our sport. The judges on that field were not lax in any respect whatsoever in my opinion. I thought they were excellent. Giving the benefit of doubt where needed (which is the best way) and being harsh when necessary also.

Back to the original point though is your accusation of wiping. I don't think it happened that much. I think playing on was more on show but it was also being penalised.

Killeronion, we aren't talking about spray here. The judges know what are hits.

I carry tissue onto the field when I am playing. I use it to clean the breech if I have a breech brake sometimes but more usually I use it to clean myself up before stepping onto the field due to the chances of spray coming through the net and of standing on paintballs, or if someone shoots accidently... I've seen it happen many times and it is better to be prepared. The other reason is so that after the game I can clean my goggles if required. I'm not a fan of the goggles off approach until I am sure It's safe. I value my eyes too much.

I don't see how you can think that indicates someone cheating? The last thing a person wiping is going to do is pull out a rag to do it with! get real. That's far too obvious and of all the times I've seen wiping it has never been done with a rag or tissue.

manike

p.s. Andy I'll send you the pictures once I get them all labeled and sorted. I'm trying to get everything sorted and catch up with all the work that I missed while away

 

[energizer]

Hey just to chime in on this one after reffing at th IOA in the 5 man alone I saw four attemped muggings(notice I said attemped ) the player doing the mugging missed and the player being mugged missed but both of my judges got shot checking guys who said I shot him first. The judges are closer let them call the game and let the teams playing yell about the perceved cheating.
L*8

 

[Russell Smith]

Manike look forward to reading you report hope its as good as your last one.

Sadly you are of course mistaken all teams were wiping and you missed because you was looking at the players involved when we all know you should be looking at his mates untill after he is shot then you would have known what happend !!!!.

Like other people who have posted including KO I was not in that country so of course I know better than you !!!.

As for certain other points.
Killer onion - why do you think if someone has paint on there gloves they must have wiped ?.
Could they not have fell on a bunker.
And as for players going on the field with a towel to wipe themselves down!, You say you have never seen it even as you say you are a marshal but it must be true because someone else said it.

Well my friend let me tell you I AM A MARSHAL with a lot of time behind me and I have not seen it, So what is true now!!!.

And let me make this clear to everyone there is a lot less wiping going on in this game than people think.

Now I said wiping not cheating please remember that.

As for Manike I dont know him so I am not on here to defend him, He could be a complete tosser for all i know, I'll wait and see!.

But let me say this if any of you watch football how many times have you seen an something happen on the pitch and think thats a penalty or suchlike only to find out that the ref says otherwise and when you see a replay ( Oh the joy of replays) you find the ref is correct.

And Manike get in touch with niall squires with regards new refs totally unbaised and with the talent and experience to ref any event.

So all of you let the marshals do there job and believe in them to do a hard job to the best of there ability, And Maybe just maybe it could be them that are right ?

And let me make another point read the next part and when you have make your mind up in less than 2 yes "2" seconds.

You are reffing a game and in the last minute a player starts moving down the left tape someone from the other team is spraying and praying and you see three balls hit the player but all bounce but one has left the a tiny mark on him just a drop at most.

While the player is checking himself a other team player starts a push and sees the player and both players fire at each other now you see the first player just about get the drop but only by a split second!, What do you do AND WHY.


A - Take out both players because it was to close to call and the game will end in a few seconds.

B - Take out the first player ?

C - Take out the second player ?

Post your reply and I will tell you who got it right, you are all good refs on here so prove it.

 

[Dragoni]

So first guy gets three bounces but one leaves a mark? That sounds pretty much a hit to me...
If I was watching the guy AND there wouldn't be any paint on the spot where it bounced BUT afterwards were, I would of taken him out before the other guy pushes.

So lets assume that this would of gotten out of hand and the guys get in fierce paintspraying with each other.

Simple, call em both neutral and check if either one has a clear hit. If both got shot, then both gets eliminated, I don't care how much time there is left.

NOw, okay, I'm not quite sure if I understanded that question right (my english is good but not THAT good) and it took me bit more than 2 seconds to figure it out.

Then again, I aint a professional ref.
True that when it gets ugly, ref's job isnt easy one, been there..

Anyway, I've seen lots of poor reffing (even so bad that refs don't know the rules, but hey, they are gods in the field) and generally something should be done. So at JM refs most likely knew the rules, which is good. They DID do also right calls.
But as you all know, good calls are usually ignored, bad ones get everyone pissed off...

Oh, and I do not think that checking players gloves after a game is a good idea. Ii would be pretty much same than checking their shoebottoms to see if anyone hit in there...
And those extra towels? no, not used for wiping, atleast not when game is on..