Air, CO2 & Nitrogen

[Liz]

OK guys I know I should know lots about this subject by now but I've been lucky enough over the years to always have decent techs round me so I never bothered to learn more, just got them to set up my markers & did what I was told. Plus I'm sure there's a few newbys that don't know all the ins & outs here.

Advantages & disadvantages of Air, CO2 & Nitrogen, which types of bottles are used for each & why, and why some markers run better on different gasses. Just about the only thing I DO know is that CO2 is affected by the temperature more than the others, & can't remember enough O level physics why.

I'll now duck out for a couple of hours to a meeting while you all post the rude comments about a) HOW many years you been around & still don't know? & b) typical bl@@dy useless non-techy female, & come back later when we get down to the less embarassing posts

 

[ciaran.mooney]

Air and nitrogen are the same thing - they are both gasses that have been pressurized and put in a bottle. Because they are stored as gas they are only minimally affected by temperature. They dont wear out o-rings inside your marker. They are cleaner less dirt will be in the gas and so none will be fed into your marker and clog things up.
Air and nitrogen use HPA (high pressure air) bottles, that are designed to hold gas at high pressure. Some are steel alloy others carbon wrapped (lighter).
They come in various sizes and pressures. Sizes : 68ci 88ci 114(i think)ci Pressures : 3000 psi 4500psi and some 5000psi.

Co2 is stored as a liquid in the bottle and turns into a gas before entering your marker. The benefit of this is that you can get more shots per fill than air or nitrogen. It is heavily affected by temperature. Becuase of the constant temperature changes it wears out internal o-rings. When they make Co2 sometimes dirt gets caught in it and this can clog up your marker.
Co2 is put in steel alloy bottles. They come in different ounce bottles the only ones i can remember are 12oz and 20oz.

Co2 is affected by temperature because it needs about 50oF to turn into a gas at 800psi. If the temperature drops (quite a bit of physics i cant be bothered to explain) the pressure drops and vice versa if the temperature rises.

 

[jynxfactor]

ciaran.mooney Your Almost right. Air and N2 (Nitrogen gas) are not quite the same thing, almost but not quite.

Air like you probobly guess is just air sucked into a compressor and pumped out into bottles. N2 is just strate N2 gas. and while the performance is nearly the same and they both use the same bottle's and reg's N2 is a little cleaner gereraly and WHILE REACT WITH TITANIAM BARRLES AND PARTS. This is why you see sparks come out of the ti boomers on occasion. And yes the sparks are a bad thing it is a product of the "oxidation" and over time it rughens up the surface of the barrels.

Co2 is a hevier gas then air or N2 so it tends to work better for blowback guns (better= efficency, recocking at rapid fire).

With air and N2 you will get a more consistant output pressure because they are stored in gas form not liquid form like Co2.

Hope this helps

 

[Liz]

Great stuff guys, just the kind of info I was after.
So lets take this a step further - difference between high & low pressure markers & why, & which gas they run best on.

 

[jynxfactor]

AIR and N2 are pretty much interchangable, my guess is that you will never be able to tell the difference performance wise. Temp range, expansion rate, and consistancey will all be damb near the same. Now I have never seen or heard of a field that offers both. so unless its different over seas It shouldent really be an issue.

The difference between AIR-N2 and Co2.

Size for size you will get more shots from Co2 then Air-N2. Liquid is denser then gass (kind of a given) so a Co2 bottle of an equil size will have more propelent in it.

You will get much better consistance with Air-N2 then with Co2. This is do to the effect of temp on Co2 and from it being stored in a liquid state. Under rapid fire (or cold weather) the liquid doesn't have time to fully change into a gas, and the the presure will drop untill given a chance to expand.

As I see it Co2 works better on BlowBack guns then AIR-N2. Now this is also dependent on rate of fire and temp. Co2 is a hevier gas and (this will sound odd) it takes less effort to push the bolt back into the cocked position. So unless you have an e-grip on a spyder (or like gun) Co2 will be much more efficient then AIR-N2. But AIR-N2 will still give you better consistancy.

Now for the most part If you are talking about Electro guns and Cockers (cockers are liquid sensitive due to the little pnematic hoses) you want to use AIR-N2 the majority of these guns were designed to use it. a few exceptions like the impulse are said to like Co2 but guns like this are the exception.

As for high P. vers low P. The above apply's. But most guns that are deemed low pressure are ment to use AIR-N2.

I hope this answers your questions.

P.S. does this mean your not mad at me any more?

 

[Liz]

Mad at you? What for in particular? Takes a lot for me to stay upset about anything for more than a few minutes

 

[jynxfactor]

For a comment taken poorly on the thread about accuracy. But if you don't remember, then I guess your not mad.

Did you hae any other questions or conserns?

 

[KillerOnion]

I like nitrogen/air for the reasons stated above, and for a site owner using it on rental guns offers several advantages. For one, there is no need to chill bottles and waste gas. Second, and perhaps largest, the gauges tell you how much is left in the bulk bottle and the rental guns. It's not pretty to see renters run out of air on the field, so if you can help them to avoid that problem, they'll be happier by far. Third, because air doesn't spike hardly at all, you can be surer of your rental guns not shooting hot, which players and insurance people will like better I'm sure. Fourth, it simplifies things in that you won't have to deal with dual gasses because most of your people that own their own equipment will be shooting nitrogen--for those that don't, just ask if you can loan them one of your nitro tanks for their convenience and yours. Fifth, eventually you can get a compressor and not have to pay hardly a dime for gas, so you can extend the courtesy of free air fills to your field teams at little cost, which encourages people to keep playing more, shooting more of your paint, which makes you money AGAIN.

Lovely, isn't it?

 

[Liz]

Originally posted by jynxfactor
For a comment taken poorly on the thread about accuracy. But if you don't remember, then I guess your not mad.

Did you hae any other questions or conserns?

Oh yes, that one. No problem, I sometimes misunderstand people & they might sometimes misunderstand me, sh*t happens. As long as things don't get into a silly argument & the misunderstanding is cleared up, why should I hold any grudges? I like people in general far too much not to stay friendly unless there's a very, very good reason.

All the posts have been really educational. As I said in my original post, I really should know this stuff by now but when I stopped playing before just about everyone in the UK was on CO2 & there wasn't really any air about, & I think someone once told me that Nitrogen wasn't even allowed for a while. I came back into playing last year & the world had changed rather a lot, though helping out at Smarts had kept me up with some of the changes. Hence why I seem to know & understand a fair bit about some things, then show almost criminal ignorance about others