11th of november

[Robbo]

I fully understand Pete and that is the general reaction, but remember not all German soldiers volunteered for the good of the motherland. They had conscription just like we did or they were simply scared into service by the power of nazism. I'm not saying this was always the case but it played a big part. The thing is tho that once on the battlefield they had one thing in common with our guys in that they simply had to rely on each other, they kept each other alive fighting the enemy that they knew as bad. remember there was no live sky coverage of this war, they were fuelled by Nazi propaganda.

Lucky, I 100% agree there would have been some German soldiers who were not agreeance with Nazi policies or doctrines but that is not the point.
You, nor anybody else could possibly draw the line that separates them from Nazi sympathisers/activists from within the German army.
You suggest they be proud of themselves, with the proviso being they were brave and that alone constituting reason enough.

Some of them may well have been brave but I'm afraid the cause they were fighting, completely and utterly negates any room for allowing pride to creep into their mentality or how we should regard them.

As soon as you start accommodating people just because they were 'brave' undermines any integrity when people condemn the Nazi movement and what they set out to do.
It seems ironic to me that the Germans themselves seem to be adopting the correct attitude in getting on with their lives and trying to forget what happened whereas you're endeavouring to excuse some of them on the basis they were brave.

Just because these guys were on the wrong team, should we erase them and the recollections from our social history?

Don't be confused Lucky, it's quite simple mate, we shouldn't ignore their recollections but you aligned that need for historical reference with an associated need for respect.
We cannot allow ourselves to start degrading the horror we should all feel for what the Nazis did and more importantly tried to do.
It's the thin end of a wedge when you begin 'accommodating' .

Oh hang on i think that was tried once before.....1939 i believe

You are not seriously equating the Nazi policy of Jewish annihilation with modern history's filtering of the Nazi's actions are you?
If so, then it's a completely inappropriate parallel ... insultingly so.

It does make sense when you think about the project as a whole concept

Not to me mate, not to me, thus starts the process of a whitewash ........

 

[Big Mac]

If anyone gets the chance go to Ypres for the Last Post at the Menin Gate. I was almost in tears looking up at my great uncle's name whilst there's this Bugler playing. Everyone's completely silent. Harrowing to say the least.

It sent shivers down my spine to say the least. It was an experience that will stay with me for a long time.

I dont think anyone can fully appreciate the scale of the losses on all sides without going to see the graveyards. The size of them is unbelievable and there are so many sites absolutely packed full of graves not to mention the memorials for those who were never found.

Now im slightly older than when i first went to vist the wargraves, i would love to go back again, i reckon that now i would appreciate it a whole lot more. I have great grandads up on those memorials somewhere, i tried to find the names but the sheer number of them and the limited time it was just impossible.

 

[jitsuwarrior]

The eeriest place I have ever been is Belsen, you enter and once you have gone past all the trees and come in to the area where all the huts were you see the signs telling you how many thousand have been killed in each hut.

The strangest part is no birds are chirping like they would in a normal park, the birds stay close to the trees as if they are also marking their respect, or are fearful of it ever happening again.

It really does put things into perspective, it plays on your more than walking through Falls Road at the pinnacle of the NI troubles.

 

[Robbo]

This thread provokes an interesting thought in my head.
When I was younger, I, like a lot of young guys, had problems in growing up and the associated friction it generates with parents.

I remember once buying a book on the Krays and when my dad saw me reading it, he kinda criticized me for indulging myself and thought there were better things to read than a catalogue of atrocities carried out by a couple of east end thugs ... he had a point of course.

But I weren't gonna let that go, I couldn't let it go and retorted with, 'yeah but dad you read about Hitler, Stalin and lord knows who else who butchered millions, how the hell can you justify that just because they are regarded as 'historical' figures' ?

The more I thought about this point, the more I found it confusing because it kinda suggests the more you kill, the greater the justification there is to be classified as a historical figure.

Do we tend to somehow sanitize what these monsters do for the sake of historical perspective?

And from a moral perspective, how comes the Krays can be written off as nothing more than pathological thugs and yet Stalin is seen as a great leader?
Does it really come down to numbers?

 

[Ralph]

I have great grandads up on those memorials somewhere, i tried to find the names but the sheer number of them and the limited time it was just impossible.

If you do go in the future look here first.

http://www.cwgc.org/

 

[Ralph]

The eeriest place I have ever been is Belsen,
The strangest part is no birds are chirping like they would in a normal park, the birds stay close to the trees as if they are also marking their respect, or are fearful of it ever happening again.

Langemark, the German cemetary near Ypres that has the bodies of 30,000 soldiers in a mass grave does not have any wild life either.

I didn't notice anything but one night in our hotel and we got talking to a Battlefield Tour coach driver and he asked me if we'd noticed anything different about Langmark compared with Tynecot. To be honest we'd done a lot that day and i could not recall anything in particular.

He said that he'd done five or six tours per year for the last seven years and he'd never seen any wild life in there. We went back the following and spent a hour there and he was right. Very spooky.

 

[Cook$]

And from a moral perspective, how comes the Krays can be written off as nothing more than pathological thugs and yet Stalin is seen as a great leader?
Does it really come down to numbers?

I've typed out three replies here, but I just can't put what I want to say into words.

 

[Buddha 3]

One of them (Stalin) said it best himself:
"One death is a drama. Ten deaths is a tragedy. One million deaths is a statistic."

 

[Buddha 3]

ZdKfz foundation

You mean the Sdkfz foundation... (I know of them by the way)

Sdkfz is German abbreviation of Sonderkraftfahrzeug, which sort of translates into vehicle with special means of propulsion (like tracks). Every German military vehicle had an Sdkfz or Kfz (which were normal wheeled vehicles) designation, like the Americans used M to designate all military vehicles.
For example, what is commonly known as the Tiger tank, is in fact the Sdkfz 181, Panzerkampfwagen VI, ausführung E "Tiger".

I should read less books...

Oh, and the punching should obviously have been taken with a pinch of salt.

As far as interviewing the SS and the Wehrmacht veterans is concerned, I feel it is important. Both sides of the story should be known and I frequent some places that have both the oral and written histories of veterans of both sides stored.
If anything, being able to have access to both sides means that you will have a greater understanding of the past, the present and the future. After all, Hitler invented nothing. He was a product of the times and culture. If he hadn't done what he did, somebody else would have...

 

[Robbo]

that have both the oral and written histories of veterans of both sides stored.
If anything, being able to have access to both sides means that you will have a greater understanding of the past, the present and the future. After all, Hitler invented nothing. He was a product of the times and culture. If he hadn't done what he did, somebody else would have...

Jay, you almost seem to be saying that events that unfolded in the second world war, such as the holocaust, were independent of Hitler and he was merely the conduit .... do i understand this correctly?